Worth the price tag?

[cmaher]

Hi all long story short. My main system finally died and I need to get a new system ASAP. My old machine was nothing special about 4 years old.

I am currently a visual effects students and I am looking to get a semi proffesional machine for home that will be suitable for both school and freelance work.

I have narrowed down my choices to Alienware and Boxx. I have not contacted Boxx yet for a quote on their Apexx 4 but I have a hunch that the starting point will be way out of my price range, they seem to be true professional level machines.

Here are the specs for the Alienware I am looking at, Can you please give me an honest opinion if you feel this system is worth me investing $12.850. Is it overkill? Highly overpriced? Someplace better you can recomend putting together a workstation at a better price point? etc...

The system is mainly intended for for both compositing and 3D, using After Effects, Combustion, Fusion, 3DS max9 and Autodesk Maya specificly.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[1] MJ-12® 8550i

Processors: Dual Processor - Dual Intel® Xeon™ 5355 2.66 GHz 1333MHz FSB w/ 8MB Cache & Quad Core
Operating System (Office software not included): Genuine Windows® XP Professional x64 Edition
Warranty: 4-Year AlienCare Toll-Free 24/7 Phone Support w/ Onsite Service
AlienRespawn: Alienware® Respawn Recovery Kit
Chassis: Alienware® Professional EATX Workstation Chassis - Black
Power Supply: Alienware® 700 Watt Multi-GPU Approved Power Supply
Motherboard: Alienware® Professional Motherboard w/ Intel® Xeon™ 5000P Chipset
Memory: 16GB Dual Channel DDR2 FBDIMM at 667MHz - 8 x 2GB
Graphics Accelerators: NVIDIA® Quadro™ FX 5500 1GB GDDR3 w/ 2x Dual Link DVI
Chassis Customization : Standard Cooling
System Drive: High Performance with Data Security (RAID 1) - 1TB (2 x 1TB) Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7,200 RPM w/ 2 x 32MB Cache
Storage Drive: High Performance with Data Security (RAID 1) - 1TB (2 x 1TB) Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7,200 RPM w/ 2 x 32MB Cache
Hard Drive Bay: SATA Hot-Swap Bay for Workstation Chassis
Primary Optical Drive: 18X Dual Layer DVD±RW/CD-RW Burner w/ Nero Software
Network Connection: Integrated High Performance Gigabit Ethernet - Standard
Digital Audio Hardware: Creative Sound Blaster® X-Fi™ XtremeGamer High Definition 7.1 Audio
Monitor: No Monitor
Keyboard: Saitek II Backlit Keyboard
Mouse : Razer Copperhead™ High Precision Gaming Mouse - Anarchy Red
Power Protection: UPS Protection - Opti-UPS ES1500C 1400VA (980W Capacity)

[malu05]

Hehe, my system died 3 month ago so i was on the same road as you are on now.
It is a really important decision, cause that kind of money is not "Just something" you are going to "spend" on "something".

About Alienware, i were on their site and the price was ok good compared to others. However... Every time i hear about CG guys and Alienware computers i hear about bad experiences with everything from Hardware to support etc.
That was what keep'd me away from Alienware.
Boxx however seem to be suited and perfect choise for any kind of CG eighter 3D or Compositing. But they also do seem to take their price (compared to others and homemade).

$12.850 is ALOT, and i would say for educational purpose it might be "too much".
I does men alot that you have a powerful system while you are under education and are able to make up a good show-reel, without the system speed turning down your creativity and "lust" for a project.


Something that would turn down the price...



Processors: Dual Processor - Dual Intel® Xeon™ 5355 2.66 GHz 1333MHz FSB w/ 8MB Cache & Quad Core
Take a look at the price compared to the increased preformence.
I guess you are not a person who are under strict deadlines and where every second counts. If i were you i would eighter wait with buying 2Quardcore processors or going for 2 Dualcore instead.
The gab between the 2 is limited and in most current CG software not even there.



Graphics Accelerators: NVIDIA® Quadro™ FX 5500 1GB GDDR3 w/ 2x Dual Link DVI
Depending on your work.
If you do loads of 3D a Quadro card can do wonders and they are defnatly a amazing powertool for CG. But it does also cost $$.
I have had the chance to work on a FX55 before both in Maya and Fusion.
For my needs it was not worth the money.



Memory: 16GB Dual Channel DDR2 FBDIMM at 667MHz - 8 x 2GB

I find my 4 gb ok for everyday work.
When i do heavy compositing i sometimes think about going to get another 4 to optimize my workspeed (a fully 8bg) but i "personally" think 16 i way overkill for your needs.


To sum things up.. You off cause want a system that kick-ass and will forfill your needs in at least 2-3 years. However if you are going for thoes few inches more might cost you a hell lot of money and in a little year the price is ½'end and you have initially been throwing money out of the window.
You can always upgrade.

About HD's
I always (for data security and preformence reasons) have 1disk for OS, 1 for Work and 1 for APPS. This keeps each element away from each other securing data loss and giving the best preformence. So i would go for 1 small raid, and 1-2 big ones.

[Aruna]

That's a pretty steep price.. The BOXX systems are well put together, and I would recommend those over Alienware.. and then I would recommend homebuilt with quality components over both.

As well, I don't know if the more popular compositing apps will run on 64bit XP. They won't be able to take advantage of that huge amount of memory. I would stick with 4GB, with XP or Linux (some flavors will run over 4GB), and invest in a fast SCSI or SATA hotswappable RAID 5 setup (1 system drive, 1 apps drive, and your hotswappable RAID5). I would stay away from RAID 0 and 1 for professional work. You'll need the security. Also, get a decent backup system (DLT tape of some sort).

[cmaher]

Thanks for the input.

I am not opposed to building my own system, I know in many ways it is much better. Can you recomend a good site to buy high end components these days? I have not purchased parts for several years.

[mike beckman]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry that your're a student with $12k to invest in a "semi professioinal" machine.
I can vouch for Boxx being a top notch outfit as I have four of them. The day my oldest machine from them blew a capacitor, I called them up and they had a new power supply out to me the next day. I'm a one man shop and I truly appreciate that even though I'm a small fish, they kept my business running smooth. I consider customer service a valuable quality and a factor in purchase decisions. As for the Apexx 4, you might be a little under budget but I'm not sure. For a short time when they first came out they listed some confiuration prices, and they were not cheap, then again, 4-proc motherboards were brand new then, so prices may have dropped by now. It's also worth checking out one-beyond (have to google the website) they make 4 and 8 proc machines also, at a lower price point. I don't know much about them other than a small article in Post.
Also check out HP, they have a couple of high end workhorses as well.

[Aruna]

Newegg.com is a great site.. Fast shipping, cheapish prices. If there's a Frys Electronics in your area, they have some good things for immediate gratification.

[cmaher]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry that your're a student with $12k to invest in a "semi professioinal" machine.


Well I'm 32 years old and a seven year veteran from the gaming industry. The company I worked for went belly up in the summer of 2004 and I have since gone back to school to study VFX as a change of career. Fear not the money comes from a bit more than mowing lawns :) and being a student again, student loans are a wonderful thing.

I used to be a big tech head, but after not following computers for a few years I feel like I am back at square one.

The reason I am looking for a semi pro machine is not so much for school but to start some serious freelancing and make a smooth transition into running a one man show when I graduate while I work up my reel and look for a steady job.

I'd appreciate any advice on system specs I should shoot for if I build my own system. in particular..

Processors # and compatability with current 3D and comisting packages (ie which software utilizes multi processor support and which doesn't)

OS which would be the ideal OS to run. I don't know a think about linux unfortunatly but if it is that much of an advantage then which flavor would be best, and which Windows platform would work best just in case.

Memory - At what point (depeding on the OS) is adding more memory futile?

Video Card - I'm pretty certain I'd like to go with the NVidia Quadro series but someone mentioned that the performance to cost ratio for the 5500 is not really worth it. Which model would you recomend (Most bang for your buck)

Hard drives - the advice i recieved about setting up a raid5 for data and seperate drives for OS and Apps is sound and I think that is the route I am going .. Thanks :)

Any other areas to watch out for that may create a bottle neck that I need to watch out for?

Also I have been toying with the idea of knocking the worstation down a tad and potentially getting 2-3 smaller systems to create a render farm. For a pure render box what are the key componentes I should focus on?

Sorry for the bombardment of questions normally I would spend weeks if not months researching something like this but I am in a real pickle and need to get a machine to get back up on my feet asap.

It's amazing how naked I feel without my PC :(

[cmaher]

Sorry one other question, If I ran XP 64bit Can you still run 32 apps just at no advantage? Or will they not work at all unless there is a 64 bit version?

[Aruna]

What are you typing on, a Mac?! :)

Some answers in no particular order.

XP is fine, but there's a memory limitation of 4GB.. Vista might be more, but I'm not sure..We're routinely running 4GB in our linux machines, and they're quite speedy. The difference between XP and linux is night and day, but again, it does depend on what you're familiar with, and I would stick with XP if you don't want to get your hands too dirty with configuring linux for your future production environment.

Dual Procs are the norm, even Quad if you can afford it. Of course, be sure that your software can take advantage of the multiple CPUs! I'm using Core2Duos, but you can get Core2Quads in the very near future, or you can get dual proc Xeons, which are very nice. I'm an Intel guy, but the AMDs are comparable with floating point work.

Depending on who your clients might be, and how often you'll be called upon to freelance, a couple of smaller render machines might work. I would make sure that there is a decent amount of bandwidth to those boxes, via fiber or gigE. Since the render machines will be headless, you can save on graphics cards, and you can get 1U boxes to fit in a small halfheight rack enclosure. (this is my ultimate plan, btw, when I get around to building a farm). For a farm box, the basic necessities are your CPUs, HDs (doesn't need to be too big, as the ultimate location for the images should be your RAID array), a lot of RAM (4gb), and a nice amount of bandwidth 100base or gigE, or if you can afford it, fiber.. And, get a switch for gigE or fiber (fiber being more expensive, of course), not a hub.

For video, $5 grand is alot of money for one card. If you're going to be doing work with clients, it's better that you get a kickass 2D card (something like a Matrox, or even ATI or Nvidia), and card for export to tape (HD or SD). Unless you plan on doing some 3D, stick with a fast, color accurate, 2D card. Again, the client list will dictate how you prepare your final images and their delivery format.

[Aruna]

They'll work, but they won't run any quicker (sometimes slower!), and you won't be able to access the greater pool of memory that a native 64bit application will give you.


Sorry one other question, If I ran XP 64bit Can you still run 32 apps just at no advantage? Or will they not work at all unless there is a 64 bit version?

[mike beckman]

I would think that unless you're doing serious 3D and needing to see previews with tex, etc, then the top of the line video card might not be necessary. For VFX work something to preview is key. I'm using VelocityHD (being phased out by Harris) as my in/out/editing to complement Fusion. You might want to check out the offerings from Decklink.

-Aruna, in my experience bandwidth hasn't been a huge issue with my rendernodes since file swapping isn't happening at an ultra fast rate. But maybe that's just with the type of stuff I'm doing.

-cmaher, using a rendernode system can provide for a nice fast preview/render environment. Here are some things to consider: the way you work will change slightly, you constantly have to remember to set your file paths using UNC naming conventions so that all machines know where to look, all machines on the farm must have the same plugins and fonts loaded (at least if a project uses a specific font it must be on all machines). It doesn't seem like a big deal until you go to render and you watch all the slaves fail except for the master, at that point you'll let out a big DOH! and check all your paths. (it makes sense why facilities have dedicated people to monitor the renders.)

I would love to see a comparison between the 4 and 8 proc machines vs. a similarly equipped renderfarm (meaning 4 dual proc rendernodes vs. 8 proc workstation)

[mbenard]

OMFG... $12,000 eh?

Over the past decade I have dropped at least a couple million $$$ on gear for my studio. The one BIG lesson I've learned is that Moore's Law kicks your ass every time. Especially on the high end gear!

Initially it is fun to get the "my computer is bigger than yours" title but inevitably a year from now some kid down the street will get a cheap ass system for his birthday that puts your power guzzling noisy beast to shame... And when you still have a few years left of payments on your rig that knowledge sucks waaay more than the initial smugness you can claim with a system from Boxx or Alienware.

I wouldn't pay more than $2000 for a personal workstation... Then if you still felt like splurging the full $12K you could add 20 $500 rendernodes! (Exponentially more bang for your buck.)

I hate to poop on anyones juicy geek fantasies but unless you're pulling in substantial coin on fast and furious freelance gigs then Boxx and Alienware are NOT worth it in the long run.

... In fact, I doubt they are ever justifiable... Especially if you have half of a technical inkling and are adventurous enough to learn about the alternatives.

Sorry if I sound all spastic about this cmaher... See what buying "high end" gear will do to you!?!

Cheers,

M

[mbenard]

Hey cmaher,

What about something like this for a $2000ish price tag? ($2093.00 CDN) The numbers are coming from NCIX.com's PC Builder... You should be able to find comparable prices on New Egg?

You'd just need to add a couple 19 inch monitors unless you already have a monitor solution from your old machine... Also, down the road you could easily add another 4 hard drives striped with RAID 5...

1 x PC ASSEMBLY AND TESTING (PRE-CONFIG OS IF PURCHASED)
1 x Logitech MX518 GAMING-GRADE Optical Mouse 1600-DPI USB SILVER-BLACK
1 x Logitech G15 Gaming Keyboard USB Black Silver LCD Panel Programmable Backlit Keys
1 x Microsoft Windows XP Professional OEM
1 x LG GSA-H54N DVD+RW 18X8X16 DVD-RW 18X6X16 DL 10X DVD Writer IDE 2MB Black OEM W/ SW
2 x Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 320GB SATA2 3GB/S 7200RPM 16MB Cache NCQ Hard Drive
1 x Silverstone Strider ST60F 600W ATX12V 20/24PIN Modular Power Supply W/120MM Fan Active PFC
1 x Antec P180 ATX Advanced Mid Tower Aluminum Case 4X5.25 1X3.5 6X3.5INT No PS W/ USB & Audio Ports
1 x EVGA E-GEFORCE 7900GS KO 500MHZ 256MB 256BIT 1.38GHZ GDDR3 Dual DVI-I HDTV Out Video Card
1 x Buffalo Firestix FSX800D2C-K2G 2GB 2X1GB PC2-6400 DDR2-800 CL5-5-5 240PIN DIMM Dual Channel Memory
1 x ASUS P5B-E ATX LGA775 Conroe 965P DDR2 PCI-E16 3PCI-E1 3PCI 6 SATA2 RAID GBLAN Sound Motherboard
1 x Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Quad Core Processor LGA775 Kentsfield 2.40GHZ 1066FSB 8MB Retail Box

Anyone see any problems with this config?

M