Learning Rotoscope art

[Tañedor]

Hello everybody!
This is my first and second rotoscopes.
I have created frame to frame using photoshop 7.
I do not have best know in any composition softwares, now I am learning a little shake, but I think that shake
They can not be done rotoscopes of fine details such as hair or any other with a lot of details.
I am now making a small reel to show my art rotoscoping frame with a frame for fine detail.
The bad news is that each frame brings me at least 10 or 15 minutes of work and at least one day to explore the best technique for the process of creating detailed masks.
I used film footage taken from the trailers, as they were with HD quality, and I thought it was a good idea, because I do not have to get recourses material otherwise. Besides using sequences of films is also something that motivates me a lot.
I think the technique frame to frame may be valid for complicated sequences are impossible to re-shoot.
I hope to get a job as rotoartis someday, learn and jump to compositor one day.
Thank you all for seeing my work.
Please excuse me bad english.
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1774/nickoleprocesssz3.jpghttp://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5088/kong0877bx5.jpghttp://img255.imageshack.us/img255/3688/puertotestha6.jpg

[Tañedor]

Ok, I upload a litle mov (sorenson codec)

[Millionflame]

You can use Shake for rotoscoping things like hair. It just involves more points than usual, and a lot of edge feathering.

[Tañedor]

Millionflame, thank you for your comment.
Excuse me, could you rotoscoping this image with Shake or some such similar Hair? I am really intrigued.


http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/6920/nia02copiaak1.jpg

Please pay attention to the following details:
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/8126/kong0877yg3.jpg

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/5052/detalle2xs2.jpg
Thinking that you can do to shake?

[quantum mechanic]

For details like hair, roto (spline) is probably not the best route, Keying out a rough roto would likely be much faster.

Nice work BTW, you've created great mattes, I'm curious how they work in motion though. Using keying or roto splines saves you from frame by frame work and reduces the chance of jittery mattes.

You've definitely got a good eye for detail, if you learn the tools and tricks of the trade you will definitely find work as a roto artist.

[Tañedor]

"Quantum mechanic" Thank you for your comments and support.
YES!, these matters can be resolved in production using chroma keying, is something elemental, but the question is not that ... When I started with rotoscope, I thought in a case study where the chroma key could not be used, a good example might be when it comes to where I had to use material rotoscope historical material (Forrest Gump) it can be a good example...For example if you need rotoscope the president Kennedy. The only thing that was trying to demonstrate is that one can be prepared for everything. Thanks for your support, you can see a video in medium resolution in the same post rar file in a little more up. It is not perfect, but it is my first rotoscope and I hope improve with the second.
Thanks and excuse me english.

[Filsmith]

Dear all, I started learn Shake software, but I am wandering how to apply soft edge to the shape mask without edge point. Since of 6 years I am using only Fusion compositing software and there it is clear but now I am a little confused. Also how to apply tracker path to roto shape center? Thanks in advance!

[Millionflame]

Dear all, I started learn Shake software, but I am wandering how to apply soft edge to the shape mask without edge point. Since of 6 years I am using only Fusion compositing software and there it is clear but now I am a little confused. Also how to apply tracker path to roto shape center? Thanks in advance!

Instead of grabbing the roto points as a group, use the edge select option and when you move a point it will then move the edge feathering instead.

If you look at the UI toolset that comes up with the rotoshape / quickshape, there are buttons called "Group" "Main" "Edge" "Any".

"Edge" is the one you want to manipulate the feathering. "Group" moves both points together.

[Redsandro]

You did an excellent job on those images, and the 2nd one has some fine hair detail. Is that just shake splines? It looks like there's no problem, but maybe it's too time consuming.

[Tañedor]

Hi Redsandro, thank you for your coment.
All work its made with photoshop only, no shake, you can see a litle animation 8 positions more up. Now I am making a demo reel using Shake and phtoshop in combination. I am looking for job in industrie or film. I have 12 years of hard experience with graphical designer and I wont switch to composition, but I think rotoscope art its very good opportunity to start. Best Regards. (excuse me bad english)

[avillabon]

Hey tañedor, good job with your roto work! my only comment is that in the video you posted there seems to be some kind of a flicker in the hair of the actress, this of course may be because you are working frame by frame and therefore there is no interpolation between frames. I would really recommend you give shake, nuke, or fusion a try to rotoscope, you can achieve the same amount of detail and perhaps it wont be much faster but its defenitelly doable! Good work though, just think how much time you can save through the magic of keyframes :D

Alex

[Tañedor]

Hey Alejandro! Thak you for your coments :-)
Yes, I am really sure I cant get the same work more fast using Shake or similar, for that reason I am making now a new scenes usin a pipeline between shake and photoshop. And of course, the video not is perfect... but I am trying to get a good result.
Thanks :)

[avillabon]

good to hear! good luck!

Alex

[Gentle Fury]

Its always great to know you can, but in a production roto is the LAST line of defense when all else fails. You tend to get that jittery motion that you were getting in yours and it is WAY time intensive. In a lot of instances you can pull some really nice keys with some math functions.

[Tañedor]

Thanks "Gentle Fury" of your coments, I only want make a reel for roto artist to get a job in a company of FXfilm. These way I can get experience and learn composition to the best resources and teachers. Sorry for me bad english... :(

Now, recent get with the toaster!! the first frame to me New secuence of roto. Of course, I never can participate in these film... I only use the footage in Hd to the trailer of the film 300 for learn and training.
The secuence its to 60 frames, I use Shake & Photoshop in combination, I think I can get very cool secuence with these particular tecnique.

I want make me first secuence of me reel with these secuence.
Thanks all people for your interesting

[Tañedor]

Ok!
Hello! Only a small step so you can see the combination of shake with photoshop, and can get your opinion before proceeding with all the hard process. Its only 10 frames, so I think you cant get a idea to the final quality and the transition frame to frame.
Thanks

Quick time player codec sorenson / quality HD

For the moment the background its only a static matte

[Tañedor]

Hello! Thanks to all the people who have followed this thread, I upload the first second of the sequence completely. 4 working days, the complete sequence only show in my demo reel.
Thanks for any comment.
A greeting to all

HD quality
Quick time codec sorenson

:rolleyes:

[avillabon]

I have a comment if i may... there seems to be some kind of fringing, seems like its flashing or popping in two areas (see attachment).. at first i thought it was the background but no. You might want to revise it.

Good job though!

Alex

[Tañedor]

Hello, thanks for your post. Well, look at this picture might help. I believe that if it is a problem of influence of background color.
Thanks

[aaron zander]

ok you definitely need to move away from frame by frame it's really clean on detail like hair but the problem is there is 0 frame to frame consistency as shown by the above post. key-framing will really help this out. that and keying/matteing

[Tañedor]

Sorry, me english dont its bery good, I dont underestand you...

The only thing I can say is that I have very careful to be faithful to the original footage, if frame to frame does not seem consistent is because frame to frame the original footage is not, I have not invented anything, I pulled exactly what we had in the original footage.
Sorry, but it's a job very similar to the original in all its details, frame to frame. Im cheked all details frame to frame by original footage in two monitors

Sorry, this is my opinion.

[ShadowMaker SdR]

It doesn't have anything to do with your opinion. The whole point of rotoscoping is to take something out of 1 frame and put it in another frame in a way people won't notice it.
Now what you've done in Photoshop is *wonderful* I couldn't do it like this. Excellent work. BUT if this method results in frame to frame inconsistencies, it doesn't matter if this is in the original footage or not. All that matters is that you can tell it was cut out. So sometimes this can mean that you just cut out the part that doesn't work. As long as noone notices (and your VFX super doesn't mind) it's fine. If keeping all the detail ruins your shot, you should get rid of the detail. Frame by frameing in Photoshop is NOT a good way to rotoscope. If it were, more people would be doing it. One of the reasons people created compositing tools, was because it didn't work in Photoshop. Believe me, I've tried. In 1997.
Do some research on rotoscoping and the reasons why people don't use a paint program for this kind of work. There's plenty of info available.

[avillabon]

There is some very prominent flicker due to the frame by frame style, no matter how precise you work it will not be your fault, thats just what happens when you do it this way.. try some traditional roto and you'll understand what we are saying.

I checked the video again and it is not the background, its the roto.

Alex

[Tañedor]

ShadowMaker Hello, I very much appreciate your comments about my work.
I have no experience in the world of cinema and it is clear that if you, but that I have in image processing and this is the reason that makes me think that my technique is the best when it deepens (careful, I am not saying the fastest). As for that is inconsistent am convinced that I can fix it, I just need a little time and a good choice with the backgrounds. I have a lot of respect for each comment that you put in this thread here because I am learning rotoscoping (this is my third rotoscope), but I think I can contribute something different from usual.
Thank you all for your advice, is that they are in good faith, but I will continue trying to prove what I say if anyone bothers you :)
Oh! and the rotoscope its was using shake and photoshop, no only photoshop...
Please be sure to comment on my work, I very much appreciate your opinion.

[avillabon]

There is no problem with trying another technique.. that is not what we are trying to say here.

If you want to see what i mean just place your rotos over a black background and play them over.. you'll see what i mean.

Alex

[Tañedor]

Hello Avillabon, black or white background to using chromakey are failures visibles.

[Tañedor]

Hi all people! for finishing these post I upload the original footage, alpha chanel and final shoot. Thaks all people por seeing and coment me work.
To all people Thank you

[selvag]

good.. work... i want to know....how much time you taken for frame to do roto in photoshop..

[Tañedor]

Hi Selvag! thakyou very mouch for your coment.
every time if I start a personal proyect I demore aprox 1 hour the first 10 frames (10 frames firts = 10Hours), after I can create a little filpbook in shake and seeing one aproximation of the resultate, after these proces no delayed more of 15 minutes for frame, its posible 20 if I want get very hig level of details.
Of course, no two footages similars, so each project has a greater or lesser difficulty. Now I am experimenting but I think i can get more best result for the timing process when I have more experience.
Excuse me english.

[selvag]

my suggestion is just try with traditional way of roto... with high detail.... in shake.... and see the difference .... u come to know which one is stable... u might try same "300" shot in shake...

[Tañedor]

Hi selvag, my process for roto its first use Shake for roto the zones then more obvious, an after add the finest details with photoshop. Phtoshop its only for me a pluss.

Thank you, I apreciate very mouch your coments.

[aramos]

Hi Tañedor

It's very impressive your work, but doesn't work in motion because you can't paint mask by hand without flickering, with rotoshapes you can and for all of those high detail things you said there are another ways to extract them. You can see your mask flickering on your spartaOK.mov video between frames 1 and 2 (leonidas didn't move, but the hair and the shoulder flicker). It's very accurate your way, but only work with static images and the timing it's very important, i.e. in one of my last works i did a matte of 163 fr in 2 days, with rotoshapes in shake...

Really, if you want to go to compositing industry, focus on learning shake, fusion or nuke, you save time and get best results, and use photoshop to paint mattes, or fix errors in frames and track them to the original footage...

Good luck

[Tañedor]

Hi Aramos ! Thanks for seeing me job and coment.

Well, its really the frame 1 and 2 as flick, but really nots a flick.... jejeje sorry its a little error my, in the original footage the frame 1 and 2 repeats, the frame 1 and 2 its the same but when I make it I dont see that, the solution its simple repeats the mask 1 and 2. I think me rotoscopes nots similar to usual rotoscopes...
But I think it should be seen as something different from the norm. Of course, its imposible make it in two days, but I mind its imposible you get that in the traditional techniques of rotoscoping. Pleasse, dont forget I am ussing first shake (Rotoshape) and for finishing photoshop, not all is photoshop.
Sorry, was that want help, but I think it may open a window to a new form of rotoscoping but also think that it can not be compared with traditional techniques, because traditional techniques do not give the same result.
Please nobody bother by my comments, I speak from the greatest respect.
I can rotoscoping anything in two days, but I can not give the same detail. For me this is the question, if the company need resolve a problem I can that is all... and me very hig respect for all body as working roto artist.
Thanks for your coments.

[Shany]

well,
roto in photoshop, is very easy. that's said.
but you can't do anything practicle with it in the end.

the point of roto is to create a believable key'ed out object. when done in photoshop, the key'ing is inconsistent and therefor you will get a lot of flickering and missing data between the frames.

roto tools gives you interpolation between the frames that you can adjust and in the end gives you a really good key'ed out object. fixing can be done later on.

[Tañedor]

Hi Shany! not all in photoshop its very easy... photoshop its a very hard work and very long...
For me, this discussion does not make much sense, a small film production company that has asked me to help, any reason will ...

Please, any roto artist can upload a very hig detail hair roto? and of course the original shot to compare...

[aramos]

...but in films 1 frame is nothing, you need a motion...

anyway good luck with the company and maybe sometime you have a new way to get a clear key

[Tañedor]

Thanks aramos for your feedback.

Hi all people! I decided upload the final full secuence.
Thanks for the feedback

[hype]

Your edges were flickering all over the place in that shot from "300". From the top right hair edges to the bottom left shoulder edges.

[Tañedor]

thanks hype for your feedback.

[hype]

hahahaha.. sorry, i guess that was a bit pessimistic of me, and maybe blunt. But I didn't want to just repeat what everyone else was saying, which I fully agree with. Photoshop is NOT a roto tool. John and Thomas Knoll created it. John, as you may know, works at ILM. John also then went on to help create Puffin Commotion because he realized Photoshop was NOT a roto tool.

Honestly, if you want to be taken seriously as a roto artist at a real studio, you need to learn things like luma keying, using channels to extract mattes, how to use garbage mattes and multiple keys... things like that. Photoshop is not a practical tool for doing frame sequences (moving footage). If you told a studio that was interested in hiring you that you roto frame by frame, they will not hire you. Period.

but I didn't want to say all this, because 1) everyone else has, and you continue to believe Photoshop will do the trick, and 2) if you like doing it in Photoshop, who am I to stop you. You go right ahead and paint mattes frame by frame all you want, I don't mind. :)

[hype]

if you want to be taken seriously as a roto artist at a real studio, you need to learn things like luma keying, using channels to extract mattes, how to use garbage mattes and multiple keys...

Sorry, i said that wrong. As a roto artist at a real studio, you need to learn how to animate rotoshapes. Those thing I mentioned there are actually things compositors do so we don't HAVE to roto. :)

[Tañedor]

Hey hype, everything is fine, thank you again for yours news feedback made more constructively.
Since my first frame knew that would not be easy.
Walking paths by oneself is the best way to learn.
I know that not everyone agree with what I do, just pretend to learn and to know where I can go.
Thanks for your opinion as a professional.

[TheDorm]

Just like Hype is saying [and everyone else]. You cant used paint to roto. It just doesn't do well for moving footage, and its time consuming. You should learn to use splines and keys. In some cases you may be able to use a single frame of hair detail and track that into moving footage--morph if need.
Thinking outside of the box while sticking to the tried and true ways.

[Tañedor]

Hi "TheDorm" thank you for your comment.
This is the post #44
I have not seen anybody show me a job with extremely fine details done with traditional techniques of rotoscoping.
If traditional techniques that everyone speaks details as possible to make the individual hairs from the beard of the king Leonidas, hair loose as is the case with Nicole Kidman would be very well aware that someone showing to finish with the controversial.
Is this possible?
Someone can put into practice everything that was said here and prove to be as precise details rotoscoping?
If someone makes it, for my discussion draws to a close, all people have every reason and I am not. But!!! if nobody shows what it says ... Talk is easy.
I will continue to work to specialize in rotoscopes with extremely fine details.

[ShadowMaker SdR]

I have not seen anybody show me a job with extremely fine details done with traditional techniques of rotoscoping.
Search for 'flags of our fathers' on this site, Aruna's website and the internet in general. They did A LOT of very detailed rotoscoping on that.
But one of the reasons I think people haven't shown you this, is that it's just not economical way of working. How much time have you spent on this so far? Even though your results may turn out to be wonderful (and more practice will certainly improve your results) you're most likely spending too much time on those shots. You will not get hired if you don't get the job done quicker, no matter how good the work may be. This is a deadline and money oriented industry and there are times when the quality of the work loses out to getting the shot out the door. Having extremely fine details isn't the top priority. The only thing that matters is if it looks right.

[Matt P]

Something I'd like to add is that no matter how much you may want, you don't earn brownie points for doing something in a way you deem traditional. Technology progresses for a reason and the industry moves along with it.

I appreciate that you've titled these threads to highlight that you're learning, and I think your work is impressive (I doubt I could do better) though it is however, impractical and I feel your time would be better spent learning Motor, Mokey or Silhouette - any digital roto knowledge is going to be more useful to someone who wants to become a roto artist.

Being a little stubborn and perhaps even arrogant are two traits of an employee that no one will want to hire. :/ Sorry, I said it.

just my 2 cents, good luck all the same.

[Tañedor]

Shadowmaker Hello I am hapy you are comback here, thank you for your comment, I also find it very interesting what you think, not to say that I absolutely agree part in what you say ... :)
For me the issue is this:-If the company asks you to perform a high level of detail and give you enough time can you do? Or can not because they never made it as ... I know I do rotoscopin traditional, and now it is that over time I can rotoscoping make very detailed, and when I have more experience the quality its posible more best.

King Leonidas took me 2 weeks of work, but this is the first rotoscoping I do, this includes learning to shake with rotoscoping (its me first contact with shake), develop the technique and make the necessary evidence.
If the re-do today 1 week maybe.

I will seek "Aruna's" and I say my opinion.
Thanks for your feedback

[Tañedor]

<TABLE id=texttable><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD id=gap></TD><TD class=almost_half_cell>MattP Hi, thank you for your comments.
Well, this is very important, my English is very bad, it is very difficult for me to respond correctly and always get a good understanding of what people tell me. Therefore, I want to make it clear that I am absolutely respectful of the views of people in the forum, I do not consider myself pretentious or arrogant ...

Learn Motor Mokey etc. ... Is fine and you can be assured that I will do it but I can not experience my own roads? Is what I do not understand.
Thank you Matt:)
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[ShadowMaker SdR]

but I can not experience my own roads?
Of course you can. But if you want to learn how to drive a car, there's no need for you to find out that square wheels don't work so well when you drive. All people are saying here is" don't try the square wheels, the round ones work much better. Of course you can do what you want, it's just that it's very likely that it will be a waste of time in the end.

[Tañedor]

I think that sometimes not everything is as simple as it seeks to do some see ...
Look at this video ... Can we do rotoscoping to shake, nuke, mokey ... Faithfully?

Well, this is what I seek to do, if it can be with traditional software rotoscoping... great! not seek alternatives, but if you are unable...
who leads with square wheels?

I think some think that I want rotoscoping everything with photoshop, and I did not speak to that, I speak of trying to use photoshop where others can not reach.

Thanks for All People


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The footage its property of New Line Cinema, I only use for talk about it...

[Matt P]

You would have a fair point if your rotoscope work was successful Tanedor. It doesn't matter how detailed your roto is if it jumps all over the place - which is the real give away that something has been masked rather than a missing hair which is barely visible without your face being pressed against a monitor.

The applications people have advised to you will help you improve your mattes further - as they're designed to be professional roto solutions. If doing roto in photoshop REALLY was the best way to get high quality mattes then don't you think that perhaps other people would be doing it too? :) It's great that you ar enthusiastic, and your mattes work well as still images. As of yet I remain skeptical though - as with moving image the quality really doesn't hold up.

I suppose there's also the point that when a director expects mattes at fantastic quality inclusive of stray hairs - they'd have the foresight to use some form of green screen element. Atleast I hope!

I'd really like to see some of your non-photoshop work, when you finally give in and start creating it. :P

-Matt

[Aruna]

I think Sander is referencing this thread:
http://www.vfxtalk.com/forum/flags-our-fathers-letters-iwo-t10231.html
and this link:
http://www.digitalgypsy.com/vfxlog/gallery---flags-of-our-fathers.php

Rotoscoping in a professional environment is done by a team that's under pressure to deliver a certain number of masks to the compers in a short amount of time. On Flags we had a large team of at least 25, possibly more, that had to do masks for every single shot in the film that we added our effects to. If you take a look at the quicktimes, you'll notice that almost every character has hard surfaces (helmet, arms, guns, etc). This aids in making rotoscoping much easier.

The technique you're using (using Photoshop to roto fine hair details) is something that is not done at professional studios. The reason? It's slow and inaccurate over a sequence of frames, like others have already mentioned. For still work it's fine, but for moving work it becomes trouble. Several of the roto artists are skilled in creating roto for hair (most use animate-able paint strokes as it takes away from human error) and the like and yes, it is time consuming, but it does depend on the compositor to finesse the hair roto and detail back into the shot. It's often much easier to pull a key than deal with finicky and shaky roto. When time is money, the less time it takes, the more money you make. I try to deal with almost no roto if I can help it.

Anytime you try to do something frame by frame by hand, you're bound to get bubbling edges, wavy paint work, and basically a huge mess, no matter how much time you spend on it. It's just the way a human works.

[Tañedor]

Hi MattP! thank you for your feedback! I am happy you are here :)

Hi Aruna! thank you for your feedback and links, for me you are the best composer I know :)

Sorry for the delayed... I need translate to spanish and sometime it is very dificult for me...

Ok, I think it is time to shout to the whole world

I am SURRENDER!!!! hehehe

Well, I feel like Will Smith in "I am legend" I vs all people... It's okay, no problem.


I think all people have good tips for me, that not is a war personal... I think, I can finished a few personal proyects for me reel, and I can start with traditionals rotos...

I am very happy, a lot of people is pending of me work, it is great!

I hope when I use non photoshop rotoscoping softwares I can make good shots, and I hope all people its here to feedback me works.

Thanks for all people, I am very happy to posting my works and talk with all people.

[ShadowMaker SdR]

Don't worry. We're a pretty supportive bunch. We'll help you out no matter if you want us to or not!

[Matt P]

Agreed!

[julievive]

Hello Tañedor . I guess the guys over here had said it all and after your
I am SURRENDER!!!! hehehe, I am smiling like a proud mama. I am glad that you're now much more open in doing rotoscoping in a much more easier and precise way.

[Tañedor]

Hi Julievive, Thank you :)

For me these thread its closed, I invite you visit me first rotoscoping with shake

http://www.vfxtalk.com/forum/learning-rotoscope-shake-t14109.html

... my first impresion using only shake its great but the footage I was selected not is the more indicated to start learning hehehe

Well... I think its a great oportunity to evaluate my skills, patience and ability to learn a new enviroment of work.

I am not sure if I am made very ok with Shake, but I hope the people can help me with yours tips and feedbacks... I need learn very fast because its important to me get a job.
Well that is all for the moment :) see you in "learning rotoscope with Shake"
-Agustín

[Parkview FX]

This has been a very interesting thread. I have just landed a job on a movie to change the color of the hair of an actor. Basically the pickup were shot a while after the main shoot and the actor had his hair different for his next movie. Anyway... I had thought to use Combustion 4, but you guys are all suggesting other software. I have Mocha but none of the other software mentioned. Any thoughts on Combustion for hair roto?

Best regards

Wozy

[jeffdotson]

Honestly, it doesn't matter what software your using, or what program you own, there is never a right or wrong way.

[Parkview FX]

Thanks Jeff. How would you guys at Rhythm & Hues Studios work this one? Just thought I'd pick your brains :). I worked on Golden Compass too :D

Wozy