Western Standards at Chinese Rates !!

[mkolars]

RedEvo VFX Beijing is a newly wholly-owned foreign company setup in Beijing with HQ in Singapore and with the objective of providing vfx services to international companies.

Our exciting business allows partners to tap on our sizable network of incredible chinese talent for outsourced work, managed with international standards of time, cost, and delivery, at a fraction of the cost in Europe of USA. Our team is managed by Mark Kolars, a seasoned professional in VFX with more than 20 years of experience, and previously led the Technicolor team in China, amongst other accolades.

Our services include: Maya 3D (modeling, texturing, lighting, rendering), Compositing (Nuke, Digital Fusion), Matchmoving (PFTrack, SynthEyes, Boujou), Rotoscoping (Mocha Pro, Silhouette), FX Animation (3DSMax, Maya, Realflow), Character Animation (Maya), all compositing suites including Genarts Sapphire and Foundry plug-ins packages.

RedEvo offers cost effective solutions to cope with the current competitive market, to possibly extend their service profile or simply to maximise their profits or increase competitiveness in bids.

We welcome all enquiries, and technical tests are best for us to demonstrate our abilities. Our team's experience comprises of feature film such as 2012, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, Night at the Museum, Elektra, and many more.

For more information, please visit our webpage at www.redevovfx.com, or contact me at stanwong@redevovfx.com.

Warm Regards,
Stanley WONG (MR)
CEO, RedEvo VFX Productions

[Gentle Fury]

So slave labor with supposedly high quality turn out. Awesome. I really need to start an Ira, this industry only has a couple more years making a living.

[mkolars]

So slave labor with supposedly high quality turn out. Awesome. I really need to start an Ira, this industry only has a couple more years making a living.

Hi Gentle Fury, i wouldn't think so pessimistic and i wouldn't say slave labor but it will become true that the West will have a hard nut to crack if they plan to stay competitive in the near future, at least in some industries.

Cost saving are around 30-50% if you do work here in China compared to the US and you can think of 5-8 cheaper living expenses of Chinese locals.
What we pay our artists is 3 times above average and still much cheaper what an artist would cost me in the West.

Maybe it is my fault in painting a wrong picture of the local scene, as i mentioned were many of the setups i worked in close to what we would consider a 'slave labor' setting, not only in terms of wages but more the environment like basement without windows and air condition in summer, 24/7 operations without OT pay and such.

But things have changed for the better and owners realise that their people aren't able to churn out high-quality work if treated like dogs, BUT still many smaller companies operate that way.

The good thing though is that Western expertise is welcome, good paid and appreciated, so before you consider quitting, please let me know that i can introduce you what kind of options are available here in China and there are many !!

Mark

[Gentle Fury]

well that is good to hear. I am highly against unfair treatment of workers simply because of their locale and that they should feel privileged to be working. But I am also of the belief that workers overseas doing the same work as workers in the US should get paid the same wage. If that makes them filthy rich...well so be it...they're working for a studio that is making 10x the profit at their expense.

I'm sure I make a wage that would make a chinese artist faint...but in LA it is comfortably livable...but by no means wealthy.

If a company in China or India can produce results that rival LA than I think they should gladly be in the game as competition...only if that competition is solely because of results and not bottom line.

[mkolars]

well that is good to hear. I am highly against unfair treatment of workers simply because of their locale and that they should feel privileged to be working. But I am also of the belief that workers overseas doing the same work as workers in the US should get paid the same wage. If that makes them filthy rich...well so be it...they're working for a studio that is making 10x the profit at their expense.

I'm sure I make a wage that would make a chinese artist faint...but in LA it is comfortably livable...but by no means wealthy.

If a company in China or India can produce results that rival LA than I think they should gladly be in the game as competition...only if that competition is solely because of results and not bottom line.

Hi Gentle Fury,

i do agree that gaining profits based on poor people's shoulders isn't fair nor our style of operating in China. Put it simple, if we were a sweatshop many of my befriended artists wouldn't wanna work for me and since the scene is relatively small i wouldn't be able to attract good people to work for us, STILL the cost savings is the primary objective for companies like Lucas, DNeg, Ubisoft, Massive Black and Pixomondo to setup operations in SG and mainland China.

Chinese are very sensitive when it comes to exploitation as this is what they painfully expereinced in their past where the western dominance pretty much ran everything in this country, so i (we) have to be very careful in shaping out our business model to strike for this delicate balance of making profits but not hitting the bottom line on wages.

In the last 3-5 years wages nearly doubled (in some cases trippled) and it is just a matter of time where 'outsourcing' to China will become less attractive. But again many think that Beijing will never be as expensive as London or L.A. despite the overheated real-estate bubble easy rivaling appartments in Manhattan. The costs of living never will be as high in the West as supply of food and goods is so much cheaper than in the West and is one of the main reasons why this country 'seems' politically stable and always will be ensured by the government not to inflate with hot money flowing into this country.

From that angle China with a one party ruler is in a much better position than let's say the US or Germany (where i come from) since our law-making process takes ages and we cannot react so fast for ever changing market conditions. China can easily implement a law overnight and that makes them very efficient.

Regarding the work i must say, that China at this point cannot come up with top end fx stuff (even some bright computer science kids are writing their own GPU real-time ocean sims and such) but in terms of pipelines, management and QC (meaning consistenly outputting high quality work) still a long way to go.

But as you know there are so many other disciplines in VFX driven movies like matchmoving, roto/paint fix, prepping comps and doing simple composites, mattepainting, modeling/texturing and such which all require expensive workforce in the West. This is where China can compete, simple out of lower wages and sheer number of people. In terms of R&D work, forget it, this is still reserved for the top tier companies in Hollywood. Same for the concept stage and ideas.

Mark

[Gravy]

But as you know there are so many other disciplines in VFX driven movies like matchmoving, roto/paint fix, prepping comps and doing simple composites, mattepainting, modeling/texturing and such which all require expensive workforce in the West. This is where China can compete, simple out of lower wages and sheer number of people. In terms of R&D work, forget it, this is still reserved for the top tier companies in Hollywood. Same for the concept stage and ideas.


While this is great for anyone in the industry. Do you not think it's going to make it extremely difficult for new western talent as there will be little entry level positions left?

[boomji]

While this is great for anyone in the industry. Do you not think it's going to make it extremely difficult for new western talent as there will be little entry level positions left?

Is that a rhetorical question David ?

b

[Boris28]

Of course the studio earns milions on it while he pays their workers under any standards. He can explain as much he wants here the reality is china will soon also colapse because no comunism survived ever and soon people if not already will want to live like the rest of the world. :) In europe its also cheaper to film and make special effects then in US.
I heard most US feature movies are filmed partialy or post production is done in Czech republic now. I know a company that did for some movies we have seen lately in USA/European cinemas like the movie 2012 etc. I wont name any names but the artists are still payed good there.
But not as good as payed in Germany for example even its in same EU region.
This industry is dying slowly and the gameing industry is wining the game now as the tehnology grows. They try to win the people with this 3d tehnology, but its not even sure if it damages the brain. Soon it will be cheaper to make cinema movies then games.

As a Senior 3d game artist I was better payed then I was just applying for a VFX job right now.

[donaldStrubler]

Guys I wouldnt take this guy too seriously. If he's posting for opportunities on this forum, it obviously isnt planning on going anywhere.

[mkolars]

Guys I wouldnt take this guy too seriously. If he's posting for opportunities on this forum, it obviously isnt planning on going anywhere.

Hi Donald, thanks for your expressed concern, the opportunities i am talking about are on a personal and professional business level and with secured funding we go anywhere we want. My job as BD is not only to find projects but also overseas talents to help us to shape out the next generation of digital artists here in China, it is called knowledge transfer and i don't see a problem with that, but if you think that i merely rely on guys from the US you are definitely wrong, you heard about Europe before?

So protectionism or this kind of attitude is not going to work anyway for none of you over there, the Chinese go there and buy your companies out tomorrow my friend, you still will be able to surf in Malibu, but in your company one day people will speak Chinese ;-) so better learn some !!

Wake up guys, there are other countries out there not just the US !!

Mark

PS: And before you spread rumors, please make a background check, without due dilligence i can't take any of your comments serious, ok? I would love to take this thread to a professional level but it necessitates that i am talking to mature individuals who know a little bit more about the outside world and not just about Mickey Mouse and Mc Donalds, right?

[donaldStrubler]

lol sure thing

[Boris28]

Everything good has an ending also china labor work :)

[Boris28]

I know 2 guys who worked in ILM now work in game industry one worked with me. One from Germany and one from an Czech company now is a freelancer also. This should alarm everyone that the movie industry is slowly dying. I never worked in movie industry all info I gave here is mostly from talk with other artists.

[Gentle Fury]

I know 2 guys who worked in ILM now work in game industry one worked with me. One from Germany and one from an Czech company now is a freelancer also. This should alarm everyone that the movie industry is slowly dying. I never worked in movie industry all info I gave here is mostly from talk with other artists.

Slowly dying???? Are you serious??? ILM is notoriously the lowest paying company in the industry. I am off right now by choice....but trust me, there is PLENTY of film work happening and its getting bigger and more fast paced. You couldn't be more wrong.

[Boris28]

Nobody goes to Cinema anymore man, new generations download it from internet piracy is insane. I dont remember when I was last time in Cinema when I watched Titanic. You can buy big screen tv so it feels like cinema at home. A usual game today in a big AAA studio costs more then 2 hollywood movies. The prices for special effects in movie industry went down like nuts. If you work in that industry a bit you will notice changes.
All those who never played games before get into it and get addicted because you have control of the story. People want to be inside the movie and thats what games do, the games are almost hyper realistic today.
By this speed the tehnology will let everything run in realtime and use of these composing tools today will be no use anymore in next 10 years.
The end conclusion is game industry is growing and is already today bigger then the music industry soon it will be the biggest industry. You dont want to hear that thats your problem.

If you still dont belive read the articles down.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2009/sep/27/videogames-hollywood

http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Video_game_industry

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1735828/is_the_motion_picture_industry_dying.html?cat=2

[quety101]

well its not dying yet, and its busier than it has been so if anything its growing. Just because you are a pirate Boris doesnt change this

[JohnnyBlaze]

the only change i noticed after "working in that industry a bit" is that projects get bigger and bigger, amount of work is increasing steadily, as is demand for high quality work and qualified workers...as others have already stated.
so what if the game industry is growing like crazy!? i like a good game and if they can be made better and in a higher quality i'm all for it! doesn't make me wanna change to games anytime soo, though...

also that argument that technology makes everything go faster, cheaper and better hasn't come true so far. the current workstations etc have gotten significantly faster since the first CGI-project. do projects finish in 2months now instead of 2 years!? not at all, since demand has simply gone up for "bigger, better and more". and it will continue in that fashion.


chris

[Tagger]

game industry is growing, fair enough. That is a good thing for the people involved in that industry, but why would you think that if the gamesindustry grown the result has to be that the filmindustry will shrink ?

as far as we're concerned in this discussion, there are two "groups" of film i think.
- the normal narative film (drama/comedy/thriller/...), which as a market, doesn't come near the games industry market, 99% of those films don't even have a big vfx budget to start with (that 1% are the exceptions like benjamin button etc)

- the big vfx movies which will almost purely on their vfx (the superhero movies, fantasy stuff,..). The problem is that the vfx budgets in these movies take a huge chunk of the total budget and it's those budgets which get discussed here. But with those kind of movies, just like animated movies, the production of the movie involves a HUGE amount of horizontal marketing, the reason why producers make something like spiderman for instance is not only because of the movie, but because of all the kids (or their parents) buying the tshirts, outfits, toys, GAMES, backpacks, etc etc.
DVD sales and cinema visits are important, but you can't look at those vfx movies as "money put into making it vs cinema tickets sold" anymore...

[Boris28]

quety101 (http://www.vfxtalk.com/forum/member.php?u=10194) thanks for insulting me of beeing a pirate, I dont pirate movies I watch them on SKY paytv mostly as they come out on dvd after few months. But as time passes I find more interesting to watch soccer and discovery channel on tv then recycled old movies of remakes of remakes of remakes. I buyed a 42inch tv to enjoy movies but almost dont watch them anymore if so just to see special effects the movies itself are more or less boring. I put some numbers and arguments I didnt insulted anyone. If the movie industry is growing thats a good fact but there is people saying different and I dont see it too.

[Boris28]

This disscussion went completly offtopic I think. :)

[Tagger]

quety101 (http://www.vfxtalk.com/forum/member.php?u=10194)I watch them on SKY paytv

and you think sky doesn't have to pay the producionhouses to air those movies ? :)
so you're still paying for it then, maybe not in the cinema, or in the dvd store, but still paying none the less :)

[Boris28]

Cinema is different then paytv if it were only because of movies I would never pay for it mostly because of sports.

[jkenko]

Excuse me everyone, just can't resist saying that for me watching sports is way bigger waste than watching a stupid VFX film!!! hahah

[Gentle Fury]

Nobody goes to Cinema anymore man, new generations download it from internet piracy is insane. I dont remember when I was last time in Cinema when I watched Titanic. You can buy big screen tv so it feels like cinema at home. A usual game today in a big AAA studio costs more then 2 hollywood movies. The prices for special effects in movie industry went down like nuts. If you work in that industry a bit you will notice changes.
All those who never played games before get into it and get addicted because you have control of the story. People want to be inside the movie and thats what games do, the games are almost hyper realistic today.
By this speed the tehnology will let everything run in realtime and use of these composing tools today will be no use anymore in next 10 years.
The end conclusion is game industry is growing and is already today bigger then the music industry soon it will be the biggest industry. You dont want to hear that thats your problem.

If you still dont belive read the articles down.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2009/sep/27/videogames-hollywood

http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Video_game_industry

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1735828/is_the_motion_picture_industry_dying.html?cat=2

So you are referring to your own experience and some speculative articles. The people working in this industry would disagree. Games are growing in popularity, films are becoming more complex with shorter deadlines. I just finished Green Lantern. We did a year of work in about 3 months! Almost 300 artsists worked on it 6 days a week 12 hour days. This is becoming standard practice, because studios want it out faster and better...it's no longer one or the other.

Just because you don't go to theaters to see movies doesn't mean the rest of the world follows you. Perhaps cinema is dying in your country, but in America it's alive and well!

[Boris28]

Excuse me everyone, just can't resist saying that for me watching sports is way bigger waste than watching a stupid VFX film!!! hahah

I wont even comment this geeky comment, I just hope you dont say that in front of other people :).

[Boris28]

So you are referring to your own experience and some speculative articles. The people working in this industry would disagree. Games are growing in popularity, films are becoming more complex with shorter deadlines. I just finished Green Lantern. We did a year of work in about 3 months! Almost 300 artsists worked on it 6 days a week 12 hour days. This is becoming standard practice, because studios want it out faster and better...it's no longer one or the other.

Just because you don't go to theaters to see movies doesn't mean the rest of the world follows you. Perhaps cinema is dying in your country, but in America it's alive and well!

You just confirmet what I said. You dont see where this goes? Less and less men power to do the job. :) doesn't ring a bell? In 20 years there will be 1 guy making whole movie in realtime from home.

[quety101]

and there will be personal transporters and no need for currency...

[ganzou]

I just finished Green Lantern. We did a year of work in about 3 months! Almost 300 artsists worked on it 6 days a week 12 hour days.


Oh heard about that!..got two animator friends who were brought in just to help finish the show.

About the movie industry, I see many of you are complaining on how it is going to die off and such. Well if it's future is a bad one and you are being so negative about it, why don't you just get out of it now that you can so you can and become a lawyer or doctor or something?...less competition and reels for employers to see. You can also leave the forum as well to free up some post space and go join gamasutra if games is what you love.

On another note, vfx is not only related to movies...ever heard of tv shows? commercials? Vfx in commercials is actually a growing business, many ad agencies are staffing up with permanent cg/fx people and some hire nearby small fx shops. Know a couple of people that say pay is way better. The FX budget for these projects might be less than a movie, but there are also fewer people working per project so a bigger chuck of the pie for everyone. Plus you get to work on more stuff a year...not the same shot for several months.

And ok...there are also vfx for games....cinematics are kinda dying out, but in game effects are still there.

[Gentle Fury]

You just confirmet what I said. You dont see where this goes? Less and less men power to do the job. :) doesn't ring a bell? In 20 years there will be 1 guy making whole movie in realtime from home.

No you are completely opposite!! MORE AND MORE people to do it in less and less time.

Green Lantern was only one show being done at the same time..there is also The Smurfs and Arthur Christmas...bringing the total number of Sony employees this spring to over 700!!! That is the largest staff they have ever had!

Men In Black 3 could possibly be bigger....along with Spiderman 4 we will have another 700 person crew again. You obviously aren't working here, so you don't actually know what you are talking about.

[Gentle Fury]

Oh heard about that!..got two animator friends who were brought in just to help finish the show.

About the movie industry, I see many of you are complaining on how it is going to die off and such. Well if it's future is a bad one and you are being so negative about it, why don't you just get out of it now that you can so you can and become a lawyer or doctor or something?...less competition and reels for employers to see. You can also leave the forum as well to free up some post space and go join gamasutra if games is what you love.

On another note, vfx is not only related to movies...ever heard of tv shows? commercials? Vfx in commercials is actually a growing business, many ad agencies are staffing up with permanent cg/fx people and some hire nearby small fx shops. Know a couple of people that say pay is way better. The FX budget for these projects might be less than a movie, but there are also fewer people working per project so a bigger chuck of the pie for everyone. Plus you get to work on more stuff a year...not the same shot for several months.

And ok...there are also vfx for games....cinematics are kinda dying out, but in game effects are still there.

Yes yes and yes....Also we are getting to a point that there isn't a single movie made nowadays that doesn't have a vfx budget. People on the outside seem to think Robots and explosions are the only vfx in a movie. I was lead compositor on Madeas Big Happy Family this winter. We did over 450 shots!! EVERY film has vfx now! Invisible effects have to be done too!

[kyrgr]

My kids still love to go to cinema and they are around 15 years old and so do their friends.

[mkolars]

Slowly dying???? Are you serious??? ILM is notoriously the lowest paying company in the industry. I am off right now by choice....but trust me, there is PLENTY of film work happening and its getting bigger and more fast paced. You couldn't be more wrong.

Hi Gentle Fury,

i agree with you and confirm that ILM seems likes a sweatshop in a Chinese kinda sense, i have several ABC's working for us here in Beijing and they tried to go to ILM Singapore and were rejected of not being local hires ??? C'mon we all know, since we are a Singaporean company that they all have severe problems in sourcing talents from the tiny SG market, that's why we setup our business here in mainland China as these key-players are in desperate need for highly trained workforce.

DNeg HR told me once that they have so much money to burn and don't need to look into cheaper options in China having the most expensive talent and estate in Soho/London. Strange that i hear quite the opposite from the US, where mid-size companies are out of business or at least struggle to cope with the recession.

For ILM it quite makes sense to go to Singapore because the tax incentives are huge and the SG governenment pumps in insane money to keep thos big guns over there, that they use to attract talents for low is smart as a big brand, but IMO not so clever to sustain in the future.

What makes them special then in the future when i can get their top notch artists hired and do the grunt level work with Asians, i mean if i have the budget i can do the same thing, like WETA for LOTR, if you have the budget to hire the best people around the planet, that's not unique as a business proposition, or ??

Greed and maximizing profits let them have no other choice rather then coming to Asia for a fraction of Western wages, like R&H, Dreamworks, Teechnicolor and Co. in India. If this is the case and it seems that is the way to go in the future, good artists in the West will soon face unemployment and maybe have to migrate to those lower wage countries if they still want work in this industry.

My question now: Is this the future of workers facing globalization, we are all becoming 'migrant workers' ??

PS: Here an interesting link from the former ILM boss Scott Ross who gave a keynote speech at FMX in Stuttgart Germany regarding the future of the vfx industry and that models in India and China are the way to go in the future.

http://www.fxguide.com/quicktakes/fmx-2011-day-three/

[Gentle Fury]

Honestly I think it will become a more global market, but there will never be la artists having to go overseas to work...only choosing to.

As long as la exists, directors and producers will be here...and they don't like to travel.

[JohnnyBlaze]

i can't speak for the other divisions, but ilm singapore is certainly no sweatshop :) . the foreigners-vs-locals ratio is kinda even, too.
also, and that's just me, i don't mind being a migrant worker. that's part of the fun of the business for me, as long as i'm still independent and am free to travel around.

[mkolars]

Honestly I think it will become a more global market, but there will never be la artists having to go overseas to work...only choosing to.

As long as la exists, directors and producers will be here...and they don't like to travel.

Agree with you, Hollywood will reinvent itself no matter how hard the recession might be, in hard times people tend to go to cinema more and the new 3D hype will attract more audience back to the silver screen rather than sitting at home in their home cinema's. It is the social experience that never can be replicated at home and still makes cinema so special. So i don't think that that cinemas will die nor will film despite so many experts stating that digital technology already has taken over...

[mkolars]

i can't speak for the other divisions, but ilm singapore is certainly no sweatshop :) . the foreigners-vs-locals ratio is kinda even, too.
also, and that's just me, i don't mind being a migrant worker. that's part of the fun of the business for me, as long as i'm still independent and am free to travel around.

Sure as long as you are 'free' and not having to take care about a family like many others, ask them whether they would accomodate you and your family in SG with an fat expat package !?!? Also the more you cost the shorter your lifespan, now when young it is quite fun, BUT what do you think when you get older, there is no stability and they will drop you like a dead fish once you become a liability or too costly. I know several guys who got laid off simply because too expensive, even after many years of working for R&H and such...and don't forget the burn out rate, which obviously will hit everyone of you soon or later. So VFX is pure exploitation or do they offer you shares if you perform well (and i mean not 'options of shares') or give you a full-time contract ?? And why they outsourced to Taiwan for Clone Wars, ever asked yourself ??

[JohnnyBlaze]

i'm not that young anymore ;) . but i feel like i'm in a place of more stability now actually. contracts get longer and longer, responsibilites get bigger as the trust in your ability rises, work hours are starting to stablilise on a lower level as well.
and yes, most companies pay for relocation of you and your wife/husband in my experience. don't really wanna comment on ilm's practices here, but it's not too shabby.
mostly you only get that kind of treatment when moving between continents, though. you rarely get any extras if you move inside of europe for example.

not sure what the taiwanese company is doing for clone wars...not my field.

[Gentle Fury]

i'm not that young anymore ;) . but i feel like i'm in a place of more stability now actually. contracts get longer and longer, responsibilites get bigger as the trust in your ability rises, work hours are starting to stablilise on a lower level as well.
and yes, most companies pay for relocation of you and your wife/husband in my experience. don't really wanna comment on ilm's practices here, but it's not too shabby.
mostly you only get that kind of treatment when moving between continents, though. you rarely get any extras if you move inside of europe for example.

not sure what the taiwanese company is doing for clone wars...not my field.

I dint know anything about ilm Singapore....when I said they notoriously underpay I meant nocal Ilm.

[mkolars]

I dint know anything about ilm Singapore....when I said they notoriously underpay I meant nocal Ilm.

My answer to that is that they probably wanna lower the overhead in the US to save costs and migrate gradually to Asia where western workforce will become cheaper to manage and operate, simply because of lower living expenses and before not having jobs, people will most likely accept working under local policies instead of union regulations in the US, also to bypass US laws and such. From a business point of view, a smart move and to prevent damage to their assets when the recession turns out to be more harmful than expected. But primarily to postion themselves for 'global competition' where unions are a big obstacles to every developed country.

Also to deal with tax and such is more easy in Asia than in the West where rigid frameworks do not allow any leeway (if you know what i mean ;-) )

Regarding lower living expenses that may not be true for Singapore where even fresh water must be imported but for India and China for sure.

[JohnnyBlaze]

if i pieced different chunks of information together correctly, it's more to do with visas and cost of relocation. same with R&H, dreamworks etc in india. most of the junior/mid-people working there wouldn't get a us-visa based on education and/or work experience. but in asia it's not a big problem (in singapore it is actually, one reason you don't see many junior westerners here i guess)

[mkolars]

if i pieced different chunks of information together correctly, it's more to do with visas and cost of relocation. same with R&H, dreamworks etc in india. most of the junior/mid-people working there wouldn't get a us-visa based on education and/or work experience. but in asia it's not a big problem (in singapore it is actually, one reason you don't see many junior westerners here i guess)

Hi Johnny, yes makes sense and brings us back to the age old question of the value of paper based certification and how useful it is pursueing a vfx career. Job realities demand practical skill-sets where immigration policies focus more on academic qualification or at least measure it based on certificates, but to my knowledge are 'skilled workers' in this industry on the top list of the ministry of manpower in Canada as well as in Singapore, we have the SG authorities list of requirements how to enter SG as digital artists, many of those gifted people in the world do not even have finished their high-school thus having problems in going for work visas abroad.

So for SG this means they have to start to do inhouse training from scratch and cannot ensure a steady pipeline of juniors from the get-go. Inhouse training is costly and requires leads to train or even bring in seniors from abroad to do that.

[DudeFest]

Hi Mkolars,

For someone starting out in a company I think this serves you as a fair warning.

Some of the claims, stories and such that you are wildly making can, and will, lead you into a lot of trouble in the future. For getting work and hiring artists. You're insulting and making a lot of insinuations about a lot of people that work in respected companies.

At the moment you sound like you have about as much information as Jah did.

People that you want to source work from (the client) have strong alliances and even friendships with those you are making wild claims about. As a rep of your company I would advise you to strongly consider what you're saying before you piss off the wrong people or get yourself sued. I myself am not one of those people but I know share friends that work in the companies specified and know the difference. You are basing your claims on what you hear and until you have hard evidence backing yourself up I would just stop

On a side note... I find it hard to believe that China has better conditions than Singapore considering the amount of evidence that comes out of the country regarding human rights abuses, workforce conditions and general views on workers. Apple anyone?

Good luck in setting up your company.

[mkolars]

Hi Mkolars,

For someone starting out in a company I think this serves you as a fair warning.

Some of the claims, stories and such that you are wildly making can, and will, lead you into a lot of trouble in the future. For getting work and hiring artists. You're insulting and making a lot of insinuations about a lot of people that work in respected companies.

At the moment you sound like you have about as much information as Jah did.

People that you want to source work from (the client) have strong alliances and even friendships with those you are making wild claims about. As a rep of your company I would advise you to strongly consider what you're saying before you piss off the wrong people or get yourself sued. I myself am not one of those people but I know share friends that work in the companies specified and know the difference. You are basing your claims on what you hear and until you have hard evidence backing yourself up I would just stop

On a side note... I find it hard to believe that China has better conditions than Singapore considering the amount of evidence that comes out of the country regarding human rights abuses, workforce conditions and general views on workers. Apple anyone?

Good luck in setting up your company.

Thanks DudeFest,

for your comment, i do agree that being biased on 'just' assumptions is not a good thing, but 1. did i never offend someone particulary in person 2. is it my right to speak out what i think even it is not based on hard-facts or proven evidence (whatever this means anyway) 3. getting sued here in China for what i say in this forum is quite a stretch, wouldn't you agree knowing that we work under local Chinese laws and that US laws are not applicable here anyway 4. would i be happy if those companies prove me wrong in what i am saying, i am always open for discussions 5. friendships aside are business people not so much concerned whether i sweet mouth then or not, if i can prove that it makes sense economically they will knock on our door anyway one day (they have to) 6. same thing for you, claiming to know how conditions are here in China regarding human rights and such, where do you source your intel from, western media...not biased and highly subjective ??

SG despite mainland China is a tiny island in the mercy of China anyway, there is no such thing of succesful SG companies without heavily relying on the mainland market, my evidence for that is my boss who is a SG entrepreneur and all his business associates come to China for a good reason. Hot money flowing into SG made this small fisher island a paradise for tax cuts and incentives acting like a offshore bank account similar to a BVI and to do money laundry in some or the other way.

If you are from ILM i do apologize if you feel offended in any way and IF so please write me an official letter to markkolars@redevovfx.com telling me to stop, unless that happens i feel not really obligated to hold back with opinions even they might be wrong.

I do apologize if i don't sound 'politically correct', i am not American and am used to say what i think, in Germany we can do that and i feel sorry if that is not possible in the US, but it is also not my problem i must say!!

If that sounds agressive, you are right, but we are operating in an extremely fast paced environment and have no time for bullshit of any kind.

I never attacked ILM or any other company but i think loud that is my democratic right, wouldn't you agree, assumptions are opinions not necessarily hard facts, with that i agree, but is this illegal ?

In the end making business is not about making friends but creating a win-win situation and if some of the partners become friends later even better, but it is not mandatory.

Thanks,
Mark

[DudeFest]

Please don't assume i'm american.

You comments, assumptions, points of view in this thread so far have been quite wild, generalising and off the mark for some parts.
Hence the reason for me comparing you to Jah.

It is in your interest (financially) to pimp your workplace, china and the like on this forum.

It is though, highly offensive, to make generalised misguided comments that you have been doing so far whilst drumming up and advertising your business. You comments can be taken in some parts as offensive to the people working at those companies because you're lumping them all together.

Lets stick to the facts huh? The world works better that way,

As for China, it's human rights abuses are well documented and make me, and others want to stay well clear it.

Lets look at the real sweatshops in your own backyard first huh?

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=china+workers+in+apple&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a#q=china+workers+in+apple&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=ZTP&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&prmd=ivnsu&source=univ&tbm=nws&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=Ds_HTYOPK4SahQeD2ImJBA&ved=0CDsQqAI&fp=125221f06985065c&biw=1402&bih=861

What about the forced disappearances of artists such as Ai WeiWei?

Like I said, good luck to you but please keep your generalised statements and heresy off the forums.

[LSPhuong]

good luck, mkolars
Sorry if off-topic, but what do you think about Vietnam's resources, mkolars?

[Gentle Fury]

My answer to that is that they probably wanna lower the overhead in the US to save costs and migrate gradually to Asia where western workforce will become cheaper to manage and operate, simply because of lower living expenses and before not having jobs, people will most likely accept working under local policies instead of union regulations in the US, also to bypass US laws and such. From a business point of view, a smart move and to prevent damage to their assets when the recession turns out to be more harmful than expected. But primarily to postion themselves for 'global competition' where unions are a big obstacles to every developed country.

Also to deal with tax and such is more easy in Asia than in the West where rigid frameworks do not allow any leeway (if you know what i mean ;-) )

Regarding lower living expenses that may not be true for Singapore where even fresh water must be imported but for India and China for sure.

Nope, ILM has always been cheap (Long before they branched out to other countries). They bank on their name and artists wanting to work on awesome movies at the cost of making a livable wage in the most expensive city in america.

[JohnnyBlaze]

Nope, ILM has always been cheap (Long before they branched out to other countries). They bank on their name and artists wanting to work on awesome movies at the cost of making a livable wage in the most expensive city in america.

still slightly off-topic, but what the heck ;) ...isn't that true for almost all vfx-houses out there - not only in california!? at least that's my experience. and i have to admit that i broke down in the past, too and worked for less. after all that's how i got into features in the first place...ahem :). but after a while and with some more "reputation" (through working on those big movies and doing good work obviously) that becomes less and less necessary and not too many mid and senior artists put up with crap like that. maybe still too many, though!?

[Gentle Fury]

still slightly off-topic, but what the heck ;) ...isn't that true for almost all vfx-houses out there - not only in california!? at least that's my experience. and i have to admit that i broke down in the past, too and worked for less. after all that's how i got into features in the first place...ahem :). but after a while and with some more "reputation" (through working on those big movies and doing good work obviously) that becomes less and less necessary and not too many mid and senior artists put up with crap like that. maybe still too many, though!?

No, that's not true at all. If it were true I wouldn't be doing this for a living and taking off a month after every show. If a company doesn't want to pay my rate, I go to the next place that will. I make a very healthy living, maybe you just weren't asking for enough.

[JohnnyBlaze]

maybe my post was worded in a weird way...i was refering to the practice of exploiting artists for credits, working for a reputable vfx-house, on a big movie etc. which indeed happens everywhere.
kudos for sticking to your principles!

and yes, i wasn't asking for enough in the beginning. it's tough to get jobs without an education and you need projects to show your talent, work on a proper reel etc to make the steps up. luckily i don't have to do that anymore :)

[boomji]

Hey Mark,
Moved this to the professional talk forum.(instead of you just deleting the thread)

We cant have a conversation and then turn around to delete the whole thing because it got too hot for some people.

It's a sensitive issue so it's bound to get rough.It's ok by me ( the other mods should weigh in though).
I don't see vfxtalk as a place for a lot of Bullshit Polite Convo.
As long as we can skirt around to not bringing each others personalities into the pit its okay.

So you got some HR tongues wagging.Great !
They'll learn to keep them shut next time.

Perhaps you can do a breakdown of some vfx work you guys did and take us through the difference in how the team approaches things.What kinds of wastes there could be in a traditional ^Western^ pipeline Vs how you guys get around those problems.

Such a presentation will help everyone and also just *might* attract the people you were hoping to attract in the first place.(Although i highly doubt producers hang around here)



b

[DudeFest]

Deleted? that's a shame. I'll keep the political topics out from now on as that's likely to cause exception.

I originally joined in because I find it offensive to claim "western standards at chinese rates" and then spend the rest of the thread pissing on the workplaces of members of this forum in an effort to make yourself look better. Intentional or not, it's poor form and i'd rather discuss why your work is better instead and what you can offer to the community.

As a disclosure I work as a vfx artist and not in HR management or any of the like.

.

[Tagger]

let's not forget that the internal market of china is also growing, and they produce some high quality films. So let's hope that the more the postprodustionindustry of china grows, the filmindustry as a whole there also benifits. since 1 out of 6 people comes from there, there's no reason why they shouldn't become as powerfull as hollywood.
as an artist, i just hope that every artist around the world can get the chanse to do exciting projects at a fair pay.

the money discussion is not a vfx-industry discussion, it's just the world that's out of balance and there's nothing we, as artists, can do about it.

[Gentle Fury]

As long as it doesn't get out of hand...I don't care if its resurrected. Kind of up to the OP. If he finds this thread could be somehow damaging than he can delete it again and it should stay that way.

[mkolars]

First of all thanks to the mods, Boomji and Gentle Fury that they think it is fine to open a can of worm and piss some people off. No, but honestly what is the problem in accepting how things have changed, my so called 'wild' accusations are based on facts and some from educated guessing.

Everyone who is involved in doing business developed a certain business acumen and when i say things i step in their shoes and think through all the options they may or will have in the future. That's part of due dilligence.

To come up with human rights DudeFest is a cheesy attempt to bash China, think about it Foxcomm (Apple) is an American company and what happend there was approved by people at CEO level, second are all these people working there by their own choice, nobody forced them, they signed a contract in exactly knowing how conditions are.

If you want discuss violations, abuse and such then i think every country should first clean the shit out of their own backyard, especially the US, don't you think ??

Thirdly, why you are so concerned about the bespoken companies, are they paying you to keep their image high or what? I mean they are looking into China for outsourcing options and that for a reason, if they really would care about human right violations wouldn't you think they would try to boycott the market??? But that from a business sense would be extremely stupid as everyone needs this market in the future. In the end my friend it is all about $$ and nobody really cares about human rights and such, that's just a cheesy excuse IF nothing else works (see 'US') out of jealousy and having no clue howto dampen this powerhouse China.

And BTW my friend, do you want know how things are in India, regarding poverty, human right violation especially how woman are treated, please aks Boomji i am sure you will wonder why the American boys setup their operations there, by ALL the 'violations' !! How that comes together, do you think they care, my friend wake up, you wouldn't last long in those countries hiding behind your 'rights' and what not. If you guys can't take it than better stay home whining at your mum's shoulder.

And please don't pretend you care about Chinese or Indians and how they are treated, WTF the average Joe in the US or Europe even knows what is going on here and who TF cares either, so that's a lame argument. Some US folks having even a hard time finding China on a map or ever left the US, so i take their comments with a grain of salt when the loudly speak out what they have heard on CNN or ABC, etc. thinking to know something, that they are constantly being brainwashed and made paranoid for various economic reason is another discussion we could have.

So, i will soon forward a link to some of our works that the community is able to see what we are doing and what we intend to do.

Here is an interesting article about the 'state of the industry'

The state of visual effects


FMX takes place at Haus der Wirtschaft & Gewerkschaftshaus
Former ILM and Digital Domain CEO Scott Ross started the day with a frank discussion about the visual effects industry. He noted the amazing individuals and companies that were pioneers in the field, such as ILM, Doug Trumbull, Apogee, Boss Films and Robert Abel, but then also listed the companies which have more recently gone out of business, despite doing great work and despite the top 20 grossing films of all time being mostly visual effects or animation tentpoles. Ross’ view is that effects companies may need to follow the lead of Pixar, Blue Sky and PDI/Dreamworks in creating content and adopt the outsourcing model to places like India and China with more open arms.

Additional talks and panel discussions took place today on the global production of visual effects – from the U.S. to Europe and Asia. An interesting and honest account of the move towards production in India was given by Philippe Gluckman, Creative Director, DreamWorks Dedicated Unit, Technicolor India who not only talked about what has been set up there, but also showed some great material being produced from Madagascar and Shrek-related content. The goal for the Indian venture, according to Gluckman, was to be as artistically and technically competent as the Dreamworks Animation group in the U.S. and to participate seamlessly in Dreamworks animated films.

[metalrahul]

let's not forget that the internal market of china is also growing, and they produce some high quality films. So let's hope that the more the postprodustionindustry of china grows, the filmindustry as a whole there also benifits. since 1 out of 6 people comes from there, there's no reason why they shouldn't become as powerfull as hollywood.
as an artist, i just hope that every artist around the world can get the chanse to do exciting projects at a fair pay.

the money discussion is not a vfx-industry discussion, it's just the world that's out of balance and there's nothing we, as artists, can do about it.

I totally agree with Tagger, it is sad fact that the local industry even here in India is overshadowed by the outsourcing buzz. I am not saying it is negative but most of the business folks overlook the potential of this raw talent pool available here. At the moment they lack the right exposure and training to stand alone and lead the local industry. Apart from very few studios most of the big guns have invested their money on outsourcing model rather trying to develop a local market within.

It just a thought, we all know how capitalism works. Unless someone create a new market for others to follow until then people are going to blindly service the western industry with these low talent jobs. I think as long as this servicing happens talented artists in the west are not going to loose any of their jobs.

I think it is just matter of 5 or 10 years for local industry over here to fully mature and the outsourcing industry is definitely helping the growth but at the same time slowing down the growth rate.

[mkolars]

I totally agree with Tagger, it is sad fact that the local industry even here in India is overshadowed by the outsourcing buzz. I am not saying it is negative but most of the business folks overlook the potential of this raw talent pool available here. At the moment they lack the right exposure and training to stand alone and lead the local industry. Apart from very few studios most of the big guns have invested their money on outsourcing model rather trying to develop a local market within.

It just a thought, we all know how capitalism works. Unless someone create a new market for for others to follow until then people are going to blindly service western industry with the low talent job. I think as long as this servicing happens talented artists in he west are not going to loose any of their jobs.

I think it is just matter of 5 or 10 years for local industry over here to fully mature and the outsourcing industry is definitely helping the growth but at the same time slowing down the growth rate.

Hi MetalRahul,

well put, i totally agree, that's why the chinese government is spending billions of Yuan to foster the development of original chinese content, especially in the animation industry where most people try to immitate western hits to make money. We in our company have made this our most important objective to train locals up to western standards because outsourcing is just the beginning, the domestic industry actually need many more skilled workers to satisfy their demands.

I personally see outsourcing as a stepping stone to help the industry to mature, f.e. for our trainees to get hands-on experience on western projects to understand the difference and to adapt. We are not talking about being creative and coming up with amazing stories rather get their skills level upgraded.

To change China to become innovative will need decades as the educational system cannot keep up with recent developments. To change mindsets it will takes a (or) generation (s) and i wouldn't wanna predict here something i cannot foresee.

But be honest, if you have the connections, low quality but high volume work can make you rich too, no? Especially when we plan to go to rural areas where the unemployment rate is through the roof, local authorities love and support us as we decrease crime and unemployment rate and actually create jobs. And these people are loyal and will do whatever it takes to keep their jobs because we gave them hope and a perspective in their lives.

So developing and making business can go hand in hand and not only merely exploiting the poor to maximize profits.

[metalrahul]

But be honest, if you have the connections, low quality but high volume work can make you rich too, no? Especially when we plan to go to rural areas where the unemployment rate is through the roof, local authorities love and support us as we decrease crime and unemployment rate and actually create jobs. And these people are loyal and will do whatever it takes to keep their jobs because we gave them hope and a perspective in their lives.

So developing and making business can go hand in hand and not only merely exploiting the poor to maximize profits.

Definitely outsourcing is a blessing for developing nation to only steer the growth not to setup their whole business model and philosophy based around it. Like you mentioned if you are thoughts are same as mine you could be even that game changer who created a new industry for the local scene. I think this has happened in US as well couple of decades back with ILM and Pixar creating a new industry which never existed before.

[boomji]

it is sad fact that the local industry even here in India is overshadowed by the outsourcing buzz.I am not saying it is negative but most of the business folks overlook the potential of this raw talent pool available here.Apart from very few studios most of the big guns have invested their money on outsourcing model rather trying to develop a local market within.


That's very idealistic rahul but the business side of things are very ugly.
There are reasons why we're flipping the finger to the local industry(in general).
Your big-shot ^local^ producer can walk away without paying HALF the bill citing any reason he wants.
You cant even send your recovery-agents after them because it gets tricky dealing with big names.(Yes, we have recovery departments now)
Sadly there is only one company that has gotten the art of extraction down to a science and knows how to deal with these thugs.

Oh and the big-guns don't *abandon* the market altogether.They just set up different verticals to cater to different markets.

lets keep things in perspective :thumbsup:

b

[Boris28]

Wow guys I see you still talk about this and I thought you all busy guys working on movies must be I'm the only busy guy here. :P

Anyway If anyone has a problem that I say what I think I dont care I came to this forum like anyone else mostly to learn Nuke and gather experience .

The current state of industry is like I showed you and if its not dying thats even better for everyone the thing is I really dont care much, I dont live from it but I dont wish anyone to be hungry or anything evil and most of your comments were agressive state like there is only teenagers on this forum.

I like that Indian make their own movies "bollywood" some movies have even better quality then hollywood movies today but thats another story.

Nobody can stop the Chinese outsourcing its again the fault of USA and European goverment because we buy everything from them but that slowly also goes down again here in europe 50% of any chinese import is blocked and Europe is slowly recovering.

I dont have anything against Chinese people they have a big looong history and I know a lot about their history and geography but the way they treat they own people just to earn money is discusting in the end its not just them.
The problem is deeper and happens in any country today.

Anyway now back to work guys see ya :)

[metalrahul]

That's very idealistic rahul but the business side of things are very ugly.
There are reasons why we're flipping the finger to the local industry(in general).
Your big-shot ^local^ producer can walk away without paying HALF the bill citing any reason he wants.
You cant even send your recovery-agents after them because it gets tricky dealing with big names.(Yes, we have recovery departments now)
Sadly there is only one company that has gotten the art of extraction down to a science and knows how to deal with these thugs.

Oh and the big-guns don't *abandon* the market altogether.They just set up different verticals to cater to different markets.

lets keep things in perspective :thumbsup:

b

True that... I was out of the country for past 5 years and it is my first time I am experiencing the Indian industry and one thing I can tell you for sure is especially here in Hyderabad things are definitely looking good for VFX. There is already a trend for VFX blockbuster movies and it is getting bigger and bigger. I agree with what you said and I have heard from couple of experienced friends of mine that apart from few VFX studios others are caught up with the same situation as you mentioned.

Lets hope for the best...

[jclepev]

That's very idealistic rahul but the business side of things are very ugly.
There are reasons why we're flipping the finger to the local industry(in general).
Your big-shot ^local^ producer can walk away without paying HALF the bill citing any reason he wants.
You cant even send your recovery-agents after them because it gets tricky dealing with big names.(Yes, we have recovery departments now)
Sadly there is only one company that has gotten the art of extraction down to a science and knows how to deal with these thugs.
b

Wow, common things between india and mexico. In the worst scenario after 3 months of seeking your debtor you just give up because they won't pay.
Anyway, don't wanna take the thread into something else.

[Gentle Fury]

Wow guys I see you still talk about this and I thought you all busy guys working on movies must be I'm the only busy guy here. :P


I'm currently taking the month off. Which is something you can do when you are busy working on movies and save the money you make. A lot of artists are off right now. Things start picking up again in august. I'm going back to work after e3, but for now I'm enjoying some time off...since I was busy working on movies for the last 12 months ;)

[Boris28]

You will be in E3 also? Yeh lucky guy then I'm going on vocation in august and then I must work on my new vocations house uff. So it will be a long summer........So tell us what was your role in the green latern I saw the commercial somewhere. I find that interesting :)

[Gentle Fury]

You will be in E3 also? Yeh lucky guy then I'm going on vocation in august and then I must work on my new vocations house uff. So it will be a long summer........So tell us what was your role in the green latern I saw the commercial somewhere. I find that interesting :)

Comp TD.

[Andreas.Jablonka]

play it cooler guys, this is getting out of hand!

[donaldStrubler]

play it cooler guys, this is getting out of hand!

dude, no one has posted in days... (?)

[mkolars]

dude, no one has posted in days... (?)

Actually there is nothing to say anymore.... the world will change that's for sure and some people may not like it, simple as that, but still no reason to be pissed, it's not my fault, actually it is our all fault, we made them so strong that in the end we fully became dependent on them, now we have no clue how to cope with it ?!?!? And that's just talking us about vfx, which is a fraction of the whole picture !!

[Gentle Fury]

I couldn't disagree more...I don't think we are dependent on any other country for anything....I think large companies are exploiting other countries to get cheap work done...but so far every place I've worked that used say India to do Roto and paint it becomes more work than its worth....like for instance I was just at Sony and they had all their paint done in India...I would say 7 out of 10 plates I got were useless for one reason or another...and since we were on such a tight deadline the turnaround for revisions was that it was faster to just do it myself. Had we a jr dept doing paint I could have just kicked it back to them and moved on to a different shot...but since the paint dept was in India and most of it sucked they had me, getting paid 50x that of my indian counterpart doing their job....great savings there huh!

At Prime Focus all their roto was done in India....it was partially useless and artists spent a good portion of their time fixing the roto they got since again...its too time expensive to send it back.

So, is inferior work really worth the initial savings when you are paying senior artists, senior artist pay to redo what the outsourced company screwed up? I don't think so.

I don't know what your country is like...only explaining my reasoning for outsourcing being a fad much like 3D....it might stick around a while...but it doesn't make it better.

[mkolars]

I couldn't disagree more...I don't think we are dependent on any other country for anything....I think large companies are exploiting other countries to get cheap work done...but so far every place I've worked that used say India to do Roto and paint it becomes more work than its worth....like for instance I was just at Sony and they had all their paint done in India...I would say 7 out of 10 plates I got were useless for one reason or another...and since we were on such a tight deadline the turnaround for revisions was that it was faster to just do it myself. Had we a jr dept doing paint I could have just kicked it back to them and moved on to a different shot...but since the paint dept was in India and most of it sucked they had me, getting paid 50x that of my indian counterpart doing their job....great savings there huh!

At Prime Focus all their roto was done in India....it was partially useless and artists spent a good portion of their time fixing the roto they got since again...its too time expensive to send it back.

So, is inferior work really worth the initial savings when you are paying senior artists, senior artist pay to redo what the outsourced company screwed up? I don't think so.

I don't know what your country is like...only explaining my reasoning for outsourcing being a fad much like 3D....it might stick around a while...but it doesn't make it better.

Hi Gentle Fury, most definitely not dependent in doing vfx, but for everything else (up to 70%) pretty much. Think of Apples, common house goods, electronics and such...

For outsourcing i agree with you and witnessed the iterative process of endless revisions where the so called savings turned into rather unpleasant expenses. That's why i started 'flamewars' against those who claim that everything is perfect in India at the same quality for a fraction of costs. IF that would be the truth, why not all of the major studios have moved to India and/or China already? So we know that this is not the truth and if IT minded (Sorry Boomji) would have become over night amazing character animators and fx artists, why people like you and many other supervisors (i personally know) still complain about the quality and mindset differences over there, same for Singapore for a known fact.

So it's not 'only' the training, the technique involved but more the mindset you got when you were raised by your parents, educated by you teachers and finally formed by the society surrounding you...this delicate mix cannot be easily replicated and not necessarily has to do with money rather with a highly complex socio-logical phenomena. Seems that it missing in India and China and many other Asian countries which doesn't mean they are dumb, just different and not necessarily the most creative/innovative thinkers in the world. Regarding China, where "Freedom of Choice" is only the privileged right of the rich, things have to change in the right direction, otherwise failure is inevitable in the long run.

Regarding the new kids on the block like Primefocus i am wondering what happens over there, you were honest and brave enough to name them and i sympathize with you, finally who has guts to speak out loud, because if you read about them how they took over Frantic and bought out a company in London and what not, people may have the impression that they are 'superstars' where in fact quite the opposite is true. I know the numbers guys are behind and let me tell you it is not about creating art per se anymore, yes in Disney's case artistic intention and necessary business acumen found common ground, but things got even more rough today and money of course is bottom-line anyway.

So, know you understand me what my intention is, our setup here is Beijing is setout exactly for going against all the misconceptions existing in the industry and also to proove many people wrong that big names know what is going on, because in fact they don't but have enough cash to burn for a while, and when they ran out of cash, we will consult them because they don't have a clue how to operate here in Asia anyway, WE DO AND WE CAN PROOVE THAT, THAT'S WHY I AM LOUD, BECAUSE THEIR BRAND MEANS SOMETHING OVER THERE BUT MOST DEFINITLEY 'NOTHING' OVER HERE, THIS AND THE RESTRICTIONS WARD THEM OFF TO COME OVER, BUT THEY DARE NOT TO DO BECAUSE THEY WOULDN"T STAND THAT FINALLY SOMEONE DOESN"T PAY THE RESPECT THEY THINK THEY DESERVE. WARNER AND SONY PULLED OUT BUT NOBODY CARED, GOOGLE WARNED AND LEFT AND NOBODY CARED, THAT'S A HARSH REALITY CHECK AND THE US NATURALLY DOESN'T LIKE IT, BUT THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT COULD POTENTIALLY BUY THEM OUT TOMORROW IF THE WANTED !!

Without the intention to piss someone off here, please allow me to post these statements, maybe to think about it and not to start a war with me, because again, it's not me, it's them (us) or whoever is behind it all (probably the 'Free Masions')....most likely :rolleyes:

PS: But who cares anyway, if we have the potential business leads and billions of governemnt funding available through our affiliated network, please don't be upset IF i try to 'pimp out' (to use DudeFest's citing), our business here in China, because i DO appreciate Western expertise and i know that it would help us in creating something unique in Asia, far bigger what we did have accomplished in the West, IF that isn't attractive to some individuals and 'only' attract some idiots with a redeneck mentality, so be it, in the end we'll win anyway with them or without them, BUT there maybe some smart guys out there who seek out for opportunities even in this forum (Sorry Mods, that was bad again...) Like Bush said: " Who is not with us, is against us....."

[donaldStrubler]

lol this thread makes me laugh so much

[mkolars]

lol this thread makes me laugh so much

me too Donald or why do you think i am trying to educate here :D it is hard work to teach the blind to see ;)

[donaldStrubler]

me too Donald or why do you think i am trying to educate here :D it is hard work to teach the blind to see ;)

lol true, us stupid westerners ;)

[mkolars]

lol true, us stupid westerners ;)

laugh again about me, BUT our Western arrogance is our downfall, that's why i am preaching here devotation, it has f***ing nothing to do whether someone in India or China can rotoscope better, faster or whatever, these are just some examples in a specific industry, the problem lies somewhere else and we STILL don't see it... this is what i mean, human rights, blah, blah blah, as if this would make a difference, it doesn't, we finally realise that we were they one sold out by our own people and betrayed, nothing to do with Asian per se.....

That's the real f**k up and made us feel very uncomfortable, no reason to point fingers at others, WE ALL should pointers fingers at our own greedy governments who brought us into this situation, right ?

[DudeFest]

Hi Gentle Fury, most definitely not dependent in doing vfx, but for everything else (up to 70%) pretty much. Think of Apples, common house goods, electronics and such...

For outsourcing i agree with you and witnessed the iterative process of endless revisions where the so called savings turned into rather unpleasant expenses. That's why i started 'flamewars' against those who claim that everything is perfect in India at the same quality for a fraction of costs. IF that would be the truth, why not all of the major studios have moved to India and/or China already? So we know that this is not the truth and if IT minded (Sorry Boomji) would have become over night amazing character animators and fx artists, why people like you and many other supervisors (i personally know) still complain about the quality and mindset differences over there, same for Singapore for a known fact.

So it's not 'only' the training, the technique involved but more the mindset you got when you were raised by your parents, educated by you teachers and finally formed by the society surrounding you...this delicate mix cannot be easily replicated and not necessarily has to do with money rather with a highly complex socio-logical phenomena. Seems that it missing in India and China and many other Asian countries which doesn't mean they are dumb, just different and not necessarily the most creative/innovative thinkers in the world. Regarding China, where "Freedom of Choice" is only the privileged right of the rich, things have to change in the right direction, otherwise failure is inevitable in the long run.

Regarding the new kids on the block like Primefocus i am wondering what happens over there, you were honest and brave enough to name them and i sympathize with you, finally who has guts to speak out loud, because if you read about them how they took over Frantic and bought out a company in London and what not, people may have the impression that they are 'superstars' where in fact quite the opposite is true. I know the numbers guys are behind and let me tell you it is not about creating art per se anymore, yes in Disney's case artistic intention and necessary business acumen found common ground, but things got even more rough today and money of course is bottom-line anyway.

So, know you understand me what my intention is, our setup here is Beijing is setout exactly for going against all the misconceptions existing in the industry and also to proove many people wrong that big names know what is going on, because in fact they don't but have enough cash to burn for a while, and when they ran out of cash, we will consult them because they don't have a clue how to operate here in Asia anyway, WE DO AND WE CAN PROOVE THAT, THAT'S WHY I AM LOUD, BECAUSE THEIR BRAND MEANS SOMETHING OVER THERE BUT MOST DEFINITLEY 'NOTHING' OVER HERE, THIS AND THE RESTRICTIONS WARD THEM OFF TO COME OVER, BUT THEY DARE NOT TO DO BECAUSE THEY WOULDN"T STAND THAT FINALLY SOMEONE DOESN"T PAY THE RESPECT THEY THINK THEY DESERVE. WARNER AND SONY PULLED OUT BUT NOBODY CARED, GOOGLE WARNED AND LEFT AND NOBODY CARED, THAT'S A HARSH REALITY CHECK AND THE US NATURALLY DOESN'T LIKE IT, BUT THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT COULD POTENTIALLY BUY THEM OUT TOMORROW IF THE WANTED !!

Without the intention to piss someone off here, please allow me to post these statements, maybe to think about it and not to start a war with me, because again, it's not me, it's them (us) or whoever is behind it all (probably the 'Free Masions')....most likely :rolleyes:

PS: But who cares anyway, if we have the potential business leads and billions of governemnt funding available through our affiliated network, please don't be upset IF i try to 'pimp out' (to use DudeFest's citing), our business here in China, because i DO appreciate Western expertise and i know that it would help us in creating something unique in Asia, far bigger what we did have accomplished in the West, IF that isn't attractive to some individuals and 'only' attract some idiots with a redeneck mentality, so be it, in the end we'll win anyway with them or without them, BUT there maybe some smart guys out there who seek out for opportunities even in this forum (Sorry Mods, that was bad again...) Like Bush said: " Who is not with us, is against us....."

If you really did have it all together and the expertise you so claim you wouldn't feel the need to come into a forum writing off other companies.

Let your work speak for itself. Writing page long rants with sections in all caps isn't convincing me. Especially coming from the supervisor. It actually makes me turn the other direction and keep well away. I'm all for sharing the love around as long as you appreciate those already in the business. We've all busted our asses enough.

So when can we see some work that is "western standards at Chinese rates?"

[DudeFest]

laugh again about me, BUT our Western arrogance is our downfall, that's why i am preaching here devotation, it has f***ing nothing to do whether someone in India or China can rotoscope better, faster or whatever, these are just some examples in a specific industry, the problem lies somewhere else and we STILL don't see it... this is what i mean, human rights, blah, blah blah, as if this would make a difference, it doesn't, we finally realise that we were they one sold out by our own people and betrayed, nothing to do with Asian per se.....

That's the real f**k up and made us feel very uncomfortable, no reason to point fingers at others, WE ALL should pointers fingers at our own greedy governments who brought us into this situation, right ?

You called ILM a sweatshop. I thought that was pretty rich considering the country you're trying to pimp out. No?

[mkolars]

If you really did have it all together and the expertise you so claim you wouldn't feel the need to come into a forum writing off other companies.

Let your work speak for itself. Writing page long rants with sections in all caps isn't convincing me. Especially coming from the supervisor. It actually makes me turn the other direction and keep well away. I'm all for sharing the love around as long as you appreciate those already in the business. We've all busted our asses enough.

So when can we see some work that is "western standards at Chinese rates?"

Hi DudeFest, soon my friend soon, and also if you would read through clearly you would have noticed that i said i do "appreciate western expertise" which indicates that i am trying to attract Western expertise rather than claiming that i already have ALL of them, i have guys in various fields from Framestore and such BUT i am looking for many more willing to contribute and seek for opportunities, BUT what what we do have is the network and the money and i guess that's the most important thing, money opens doors and let us talk to decision makers and when you state that i attack those reputated companies, you are right, but not what they do in the West, BUT most definitely what they do or plan to do here in the East.

Words are not convincing for sure and that's a flaw in marketing anyway, but we are happy to invite interested individuals to come down to China and see for themselves what we can do, IF you just want see a demoreel, not a problem, we did outsourcing for MPC and others and feel very comfortable to show off, BUT if i tell you wha they pay, you wouldn't wanna talk with me anymore or join me the next day as partner :)

Mark

[metalrahul]

dude, no one has posted in days... (?)

Man you literally resurrected this thread but it's definitely is an interesting read!

[JohnnyBlaze]

when you state that i attack those reputated companies, you are right, but not what they do in the West, BUT most definitely what they do or plan to do here in the East.

i think it would help this thread immensely if you stopped talking in riddles and tell us what you think is happening with "these companies" in asia. or stop, because these rumors, are not really adding to your credit...

[mkolars]

You called ILM a sweatshop. I thought that was pretty rich considering the country you're trying to pimp out. No?

Depends from which angle you wanna see it, do you think they pay similar wages like in the US to the Singapore boys. Sweatshop IMO is defined by exploiting talents for economic gains in paying 'relatively' low wages, riding on a existing brand to lure in top talent to work for low. Hey when i said sweatshop it doesn't mean ILM in general, i would love to work for them, i am not touching their artistic/technological/innovative/pioneering integrity, i am talking about economic realities, everyone technically who moves to Asia is a 'sweatshop' by my definition, so please don't mix that up, or do you think they come to enjoy the sunshine and the polluted waters or embrace the Asian culture (sure, that's the real reason...) or like George mentioned to find a new blend of Western and Asian styles (sure culturally diversed and to immerse themselves into 'what' ?? British colonial trading hub based on Malayian heritage, blown up by hot money and a banking system over there acting as a huge offshore account.... (hmmmm, that sound more reasonable...)

C'mon i like to write these long threads, finally something to share, part research, part educated guessing, part fiction and finally if someone replies at least have 'some' interested readers.

The truth lies somewhere in between.

[donaldStrubler]

Talk is cheap. So extremely cheap, in fact, that it plays well in your favor, Mkolars. Please throw a reel for us to view and include relative regional monetary comparisons, or just stop talking, please.
At this point you are really doing nothing for your company.

[mkolars]

Talk is cheap. So extremely cheap, in fact, that it plays well in your favor, Mkolars. Please throw a reel for us to view and include relative regional monetary comparisons, or just stop talking, please.
At this point you are really doing nothing for your company.

Hey Donald, you are right, i will stop, BUT i will soon post a reel here, BUT please excuse me that i can't tell you how much it was for a particular shot, it would damage many of those you are trying to protect as well is bound to NDA's which we signed, what i can tell you is that the cost savings range from roughly 3-5 times depending on the complexity, i am also only able to show what is approved and greenlit to showcase, ok?

Sorry for bothering all of you and like one of the mods already mentioned is it highly unlikely that i will have the chance to talk to producers here in these forums, because they talk my language and do understand the objectives involved. Artists and money people should be separated, it always ends up in fighting, what a nonsense and a waste of my and you time. For you it is art for the people i am doing consulting it is money, but i don't want discuss this any further, again waste of time....

Give me some days, i have to compile the things i am allowed to showcase, thanks folks, Regards, Mark

[DudeFest]

Depends from which angle you wanna see it, do you think they pay similar wages like in the US to the Singapore boys. Sweatshop IMO is defined by exploiting talents for economic gains in paying 'relatively' low wages, riding on a existing brand to lure in top talent to work for low. Hey when i said sweatshop it doesn't mean ILM in general, i would love to work for them, i am not touching their artistic/technological/innovative/pioneering integrity, i am talking about economic realities, everyone technically who moves to Asia is a 'sweatshop' by my definition, so please don't mix that up, or do you think they come to enjoy the sunshine and the polluted waters or embrace the Asian culture (sure, that's the real reason...) or like George mentioned to find a new blend of Western and Asian styles (sure culturally diversed and to immerse themselves into 'what' ?? British colonial trading hub based on Malayian heritage, blown up by hot money and a banking system over there acting as a huge offshore account.... (hmmmm, that sound more reasonable...)

C'mon i like to write these long threads, finally something to share, part research, part educated guessing, part fiction and finally if someone replies at least have 'some' interested readers.

The truth lies somewhere in between.

Stick to the facts and you won't get yourself into trouble. If everyone went by their own interpretations of words we'd have a horrible time.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sweatshop

Relatively paid is still not low paid.

Again, is this Jah?

Jah was part german
Jah loved china
Jah was a ex autodesk comp guy
Jah spoke in riddles and made no sense
Jah didn't base anything on facts.

You have qualities of all of the above... just saying...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sweatshop

[mkolars]

Stick to the facts and you won't get yourself into trouble. If everyone went by their own interpretations of words we'd have a horrible time.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sweatshop

Relatively paid is still not low paid.

Again, is this Jah?

Jah was part german
Jah loved china
Jah was a ex autodesk comp guy
Jah spoke in riddles and made no sense
Jah didn't base anything on facts.

You have qualities of all of the above... just saying...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sweatshop

True, agree with that, but ever considered even you speak the truth that people with more influence would try to bend the truth to their favour, conclusions are drawn based on assumptions concluded on educated guessing and predictions based on known and repeated behaviroal economic patterns. A financial advisor or broker does this the whole day long, there is no such thing as a 'fact' unless someone influencial (credible) states it as a 'fact' and you believe it. Nobody of us ever can know the facts unless you were eye witnessing them and even than people would try to argue that you probably had a hallucination under drug influence (discrediting you by all means). So most of the things you think are 'facts' are fragmented second hand information pieces put together by someone who based his assumption(s) on his/her own interpretation, so nothing wrong with that, it is called 'opinion' and it can vary a lot, the way you perceive reality is not necessarily how someone else's perceive it, so be careful with 'facts'...... it's all relative (yes, Mr. Einstein..)

And, Hey, might be that i am a split personality and writing under Jah's name, but evne than i wouldn't even know it, right?

[JohnnyBlaze]

the difference is, in this very thread you're stating your own opinion (as you say, made up from lots of guessing) to make your operation look better. you say it yourself, be careful with so-called facts

[mkolars]

the difference is, in this very thread you're stating your own opinion (as you say, made up from lots of guessing) to make your operation look better. you say it yourself, be careful with so-called facts

Yes, Johnny that's true, i just mentioning this because others think that they know, just because they know someone in those companies, i do too on the business side, so maybe we are all right, but here i am talking mostly to artists rather than business guys and quite normal that there is a conflict in itself, because they would never ever tell you what is going on behind the scenes and what they are plannig and vice versa and the numbers guys don't really care what you think either.

But honestly i just wanted t attract some talents down here because i am member of VFXTalk i thought this might be a good idea, but i have many other sources available so i am not really dependent, my only mistake was that i let myself get involved in all these talks, so i am still more artist than business driven otherwise i would have realised long time ago that i am wasting my time here, nonetheless i enjoy the conversations and opinions/challenges here in these forums, quite entertaining and educating at the same time, i hope not only for me but for everyone else too.

But to think that i really develop our company over VFX Talk is quite naive, but doing marketing why not, everytime i post something here it can be found by google search robots, which is technically the same i post it somewhere else, right? So it doesn't make a big difference to me...

[metalrahul]

One thing I totally agree with Mark is that on the rise of Asian market and the world economy as we know is going to shift in near future. Here is a video based on real statistics
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PS: Sorry for topic diversion but hey lets look at things in a bigger picture.

[mkolars]

One thing I totally agree with Mark is that on the rise of Asian market and the world economy as we know is going to shift in near future. Here is a video based on real statistics
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PS: Sorry for topic diversion but hey lets look at things in a bigger picture.

Yeah, C'mon baby, to piss off people again, financial experts predict that China will exceed the US economy within 5 years, so the times of 2 houses and 3 cars is most definitely over and they are the country of the most obese people in the world, maybe the recession helps them to get in shape again and would lower the health expenses and decrease the burden for medicare. Just a thought :D

[metalrahul]

I didn't want to piss anyone off but then again the world is changing whether we like it or not. Nothing is permanent, everything is temporary including super powers, countries, economies, companies, you and me!

[tommy138]

But honestly i just wanted t attract some talents down here because i am member of VFXTalk i thought this might be a good idea,

Hi mark, serious question here.
You're saying you're looking for (Western) talent to come over there.
In the old china thread you started, you said they use people's knowledge, to train (cheap) chinese people, and then get rid of the "experts" when the cheap locals know enough.
Now why would a Western artist want to come to china, share his knowledge with the local talent, and then after a while get sent back to where ever he came from?
Then when he's back, his new employer will be competing with the same people he has helped train in China (and are undercutting him as well)?
I don't really find it that appealing to be honest.
I get than when you're a vfx producer/supervisor, and you have a chinese wife, that you can greatly benefit of these western artists training your cheap labour.
But what's really in it for the western artist (except for experiencing a different culture for a while.)?

[ganzou]

You know....who cares if people in Asia want to set up their small companies? In any 3rd world country for that matter....(I come from one so don't start making assumptions). They have the right to do it and they should...will definitely improve content on tv and on their screen locally. One thing I do know is that I don't see any of these countries overtaking the western industry any time soon...maybe never.

Jobs like roto/paint, animation cleanup,some degree of modeling etc are outsourced because they are more like grunt work...not that creative compared to other jobs. They should be outsourced by all means and just have all that stuff come out of the assembly line so the artists can work their magic as soon as possible. I don't mind if those jobs have left California....in fact...people in the west should not aspire to be a matchmover or roto artist....sure it used to be the way to get into a company to "earn your way to comp", but the entry level paradigm should change in the west to account for the grunt work being outsourced....if you are a real good comper out of college...you should not have to bring coffee to senior compers and do runner work and such to "earn your place"...you should be put in as an assistant comper so the company can really use your talent...it is that which they are paying for after all.

Going back to topic....the west will not be overtaken anytime soon because from a young age...people have lots of exposure to art. There are many grade/high schools with art programs..of course some improvements could happen...colleges offer really good art programs...plus society as a whole is more open to the arts than countries not in the west. Plus there is a big push on behalf of teachers to inspire imagination and creativity on their students. All of this combined does make a person more likely to develop a good artistic eye than their counterparts in the other side of the world which have a greater push to focus on production (building things)...math and science...which are having a great effect on other industries. So...for the time being...imagination, creativity and good artistic eye will still remain in the west and all the jobs that go with it. That is the reason why many big movies in china and india have brought in western people for top positions in both production and post...they know they don't have the artistic talent required.

In all honesty....this industry in the west has a lot of years of experience making movies and refining the vfx process ....one can say..."sure...china and india are behind but will catch up one day" ..... this is a very very bad assumption.....what this means is that somehow the west will remain frozen in time while the rest of the world catches up - not gonna happen. While the rest of the world is trying to catch up...the west will already have improved itself and will be at an even higher level.

To me, these are the realities of the industry...some grunt jobs are being lost to non western countries....but the west will still be king in artistic creativity, talent and quality....which really is what shows in the end result.

[Gentle Fury]

One thing I totally agree with Mark is that on the rise of Asian market and the world economy as we know is going to shift in near future. Here is a video based on real statistics
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PS: Sorry for topic diversion but hey lets look at things in a bigger picture.

A very interesting video....puts a lot in perspective....unfortunately I think China and India's gov will restrict any real meaningful growth.....fill the coffers and keep the people from thriving...that is the way. I think the more logical conclusion will be the US and UK plummeting to current China and India economic rates and that leveling off making the world leaders the wealthy and everyone else poor.

[donaldStrubler]

Yeah, C'mon baby, to piss off people again, financial experts predict that China will exceed the US economy within 5 years, so the times of 2 houses and 3 cars is most definitely over and they are the country of the most obese people in the world, maybe the recession helps them to get in shape again and would lower the health expenses and decrease the burden for medicare. Just a thought :D

wow. You really are another Jah.

I came back to vfxtalk for 2 days just to find this again? Peace

[Gentle Fury]

wow. You really are another Jah.

I came back to vfxtalk for 2 days just to find this again? Peace

Donald? You're not actually going to leave us because of a single thread you don't agree on are you? Posted by a member not a mod or admin.

[Andreas.Jablonka]

Why dont you stay away then Donald? I somehow see a tendency of you being involved in all these "tiring" threads...

I disagree that that a junior artist should not have to pay his dues to move up. Maybe not runner but still learn. Sorry to be bold but there is NO good comper right out of school they all know software and maybe have some talent but still have no production experience. its unrealistic to assume they can deliver the same work as a seasoned artist.

I dont think the west will be overtaken soon, simple because they mindset of money people oin the west involves ego as well and they dont WANT to have all their vfx done in china or india or korea yet. As Fury pointed out QC is a problem withoutsorucing with 50% of the work needing fixig/redone or is plain unusable (I worked both at sony and r&h and had india/korea roto and paint delivered to me. so this is first hand knowledge). He pointed out correctly that sure its cheaper to redo it 10 times but the DEADLINE does not move so a senior western artist needs to spend time to fix it. I think the producers dont seem to really calculate this tradeoff. But Im not gonna deny that having the option to outsource is appealing.

Tommy mentioned that he would not want to go to China, train artist and then get fired or leave.See I dont mind at all. Will they be better after my training? Yes for sure, will they be able to compete at our quality level? No its just an improvement of their skills not a replacement of their skill. So I think see it as a vacation with work, get paid decent to teach, enjoy the sights, maybe do some good as they do need good teachers and then maybe one day youll get a roto that has one of your tricks applied and you can smile because this one roto does NOT need fixing and your day just ended after 12 hours and not 16 because they roto needed to be redone y you because they shot needs to final the next day!

do we need to close this thread now?

[Gentle Fury]

Why dont you stay away then Donald? I somehow see a tendency of you being involved in all these "tiring" threads...

I disagree that that a junior artist should not have to pay his dues to move up. Maybe not runner but still learn. Sorry to be bold but there is NO good comper right out of school they all know software and maybe have some talent but still have no production experience. its unrealistic to assume they can deliver the same work as a seasoned artist.

I dont think the west will be overtaken soon, simple because they mindset of money people oin the west involves ego as well and they dont WANT to have all their vfx done in china or india or korea yet. As Fury pointed out QC is a problem withoutsorucing with 50% of the work needing fixig/redone or is plain unusable (I worked both at sony and r&h and had india/korea roto and paint delivered to me. so this is first hand knowledge). He pointed out correctly that sure its cheaper to redo it 10 times but the DEADLINE does not move so a senior western artist needs to spend time to fix it. I think the producers dont seem to really calculate this tradeoff. But Im not gonna deny that having the option to outsource is appealing.

Tommy mentioned that he would not want to go to China, train artist and then get fired or leave.See I dont mind at all. Will they be better after my training? Yes for sure, will they be able to compete at our quality level? No its just an improvement of their skills not a replacement of their skill. So I think see it as a vacation with work, get paid decent to teach, enjoy the sights, maybe do some good as they do need good teachers and then maybe one day youll get a roto that has one of your tricks applied and you can smile because this one roto does NOT need fixing and your day just ended after 12 hours and not 16 because they roto needed to be redone y you because they shot needs to final the next day!

do we need to close this thread now?

Well stated. I don't think there is a reason to close this thread...there is nothing personal being stated...only opinions. If it gets out of hand sure...but right now I think its a good debate/discussion.

[metalrahul]

A very interesting video....puts a lot in perspective....unfortunately I think China and India's gov will restrict any real meaningful growth.....fill the coffers and keep the people from thriving...that is the way. I think the more logical conclusion will be the US and UK plummeting to current China and India economic rates and that leveling off making the world leaders the wealthy and everyone else poor.

That's very unlikely to happen considering the infrastructure and foundation western countries posses at the moment. It is illogical that they may come down to standards of their eastern counterparts unless due to war,natural calamities or even an alien invasion :D

At the same time, looking at the growth rate and the immense untapped manpower (the people who are very slowly moving out poverty in these poor countries), it looks very promising for the east at all levels. Well, maybe not so at the creative level but then again you have to take in account that this is what could happen to any people irrespective of color, race, creed that after more than 200 years of suppression and foreign reign.

The fact that we are having this discussion when these countries just crossed their 50 years of sovereignty itself is a great proof for their potential and what could they become in future.

[georgeivan]

So much words,so few reels.
So far its feels like a brochure from mkollars.

Visit China! share your secrets! get fucked!

[Andreas.Jablonka]

common lets stay friendly please guys!

[georgeivan]

Sorry just a joke,i cant´say too much without seeing western work with low budget.

This thread its just words for now

I hardly doubt that 3d characters can be done WELL there,with "western" quality.

Sure they can do vfx (as other small countries around the world), even commercials but movies its another issue ,imho you need lots of expertise,R&D,etc.

Its just can´t be replaced with lots of guys for the minimum wage.

[mkolars]

Sorry just a joke,i cant´say too much without seeing western work with low budget.

This thread its just words for now

I hardly doubt that 3d characters can be done WELL there,with "western" quality.

Sure they can do vfx (as other small countries around the world), even commercials but movies its another issue ,imho you need lots of expertise,R&D,etc.

Its just can´t be replaced with lots of guys for the minimum wage.

Sorry, i was out, you guys know me already, i normally immediately reply. Well i worked at BASE FX and they recently won and Emmy for 'THE PACIFIC' and they are doing many other high-profile shows for HBO and are capable of doing photo-realistic creatures, wolves and what not. Their staff is comprised of Chinese locals who rival many Western companies, founded and managed by an American with good connections to L.A. probably THE most successful VFX company in Asia.

So i would be careful with statements like the art education of highschool and universities is better in the West, Chinese are world famous for painters and art long time before we even knew what 'painting means. Don't forget some Chinese folks in Lucas working as concept artists or character designers (in fact one of my ex students works in Lucas in Singapore) and in science and especially in algebra Chinese are second to none in the world when it comes to competitions. That creativity was not fostered nor much appreciated will come to an end and will for sure take quite a while until the educational system is restructured.

Besides having the longest bullet train tracks in the world and ultra modern IT infrasturcture, China is developing their own Stealth bombers and start competing with their short haul prototype C919 with Boeing and Airbus. The time has come to change the system from 'immitating and manufacturing' to 'innovating' through reverse engineering and on top high-level academic research i don't see this country as 3rd world developing country anymore, if you compare the weak health care system with our wellfare system in Europe i could also easily speak of an underdeveloped social wellfare system in the US too, or?

Everyone ripped off technologies from other nations like the US from Braun (rocket engine) or Oppenheimer for the atomic bomb, just as an example.

But to answer the good question: "What is a Westerner benefiting here in China" Simple, first of all: Respect, 2. If the Westerner demonstrates to be highly adaptable, nearly endless opportunities waiting to be picked up 3. access to funding beyond imagination.... but back to the opportunities, coming here and contributing to the successful development of an industry in it's infancy is not only rewarding but highly beneficial, not only in terms of money but more in gaining international experience in a highly diversed cultural environment, also not to forget the pure excitment witnessing things changing almost over night, the pace seems brutal and is indeed tiring but it is like a drug, when i go back to Germany i feel as if i took a pack valium, soooooooo slooooooow and nothing new. Which brings us to 'NEW', coming here means learning new skill-sets, be it exploring the nature, the cousine, the women (ahhhmmm...), the different tastes, etc. on the business side of things, the different commons, practices and traditions, you learn to see the big picture, understand market dynamics, socities and what not. If you want come here and just eat burgers, because that let you feel secure, you will for sure miss the most import points in traveling around the world. After when you come back home, you will understand and find it quite amusing how the rest is not aware of sitting in their own tiny boxes but still think that 'only' the other people don't get it. Your understanding of things greatly improved and you'll realize what is wrong in your culture/society and you'll be able to make a sound judgment rather being ignorant because of not knowing what is going on....if that's not good enough, what else do you expect from your life?

Mark

[JohnnyBlaze]

i know a couple of people who went to shanghai for short-term vfx-work and they all liked it. but staying there for a long-term operation...isn't for me at the moment i think.
that's one reason why singapore was so attractive...you get to experience the asian cultures, but it's still 'western' enough to not put too many people off. a nice inbetween-solution :)


chris

[mkolars]

i know a couple of people who went to shanghai for short-term vfx-work and they all liked it. but staying there for a long-term operation...isn't for me at the moment i think.
that's one reason why singapore was so attractive...you get to experience the asian cultures, but it's still 'western' enough to not put too many people off. a nice inbetween-solution :)


chris

Hi Chris, sure it is not for everyone, it can be quite a culture shock (in fact it was a huge shock for me too), it is so different to what we know and gotta be open-minded and adventurous in your approach, otherwise it can be hell !! And i forgot some other vendors operatin here in China, Pixomondo and Technicolor but doesn't mean that they can pitch like us, but technically we all share the same people....

[donaldStrubler]

do we need to close this thread now?

^_^

[donaldStrubler]

Why dont you stay away then Donald? I somehow see a tendency of you being involved in all these "tiring" threads...

I disagree that that a junior artist should not have to pay his dues to move up. Maybe not runner but still learn. Sorry to be bold but there is NO good comper right out of school they all know software and maybe have some talent but still have no production experience. its unrealistic to assume they can deliver the same work as a seasoned artist.



who is this even directed towards and what does it have to do with anything?

[Gentle Fury]

I'm surprised deke hasn't chimed in at all...having first hand experience.

[tommy138]

He's too busy enjoying his Western lifestyle ;)

I have to say, I have thought about going though, just for the cultural experience, and being able to travel to all the awesome places over there.
Not really just for work reasons though...

edit:

But I think like JohnnyBlaze, i'd prefer singapore...

[DudeFest]

Sorry, i was out, you guys know me already, i normally immediately reply. Well i worked at BASE FX and they recently won and Emmy for 'THE PACIFIC' and they are doing many other high-profile shows for HBO and are capable of doing photo-realistic creatures, wolves and what not. Their staff is comprised of Chinese locals who rival many Western companies, founded and managed by an American with good connections to L.A. probably THE most successful VFX company in Asia.

So i would be careful with statements like the art education of highschool and universities is better in the West, Chinese are world famous for painters and art long time before we even knew what 'painting means. Don't forget some Chinese folks in Lucas working as concept artists or character designers (in fact one of my ex students works in Lucas in Singapore) and in science and especially in algebra Chinese are second to none in the world when it comes to competitions. That creativity was not fostered nor much appreciated will come to an end and will for sure take quite a while until the educational system is restructured.

Besides having the longest bullet train tracks in the world and ultra modern IT infrasturcture, China is developing their own Stealth bombers and start competing with their short haul prototype C919 with Boeing and Airbus. The time has come to change the system from 'immitating and manufacturing' to 'innovating' through reverse engineering and on top high-level academic research i don't see this country as 3rd world developing country anymore, if you compare the weak health care system with our wellfare system in Europe i could also easily speak of an underdeveloped social wellfare system in the US too, or?

Everyone ripped off technologies from other nations like the US from Braun (rocket engine) or Oppenheimer for the atomic bomb, just as an example.

But to answer the good question: "What is a Westerner benefiting here in China" Simple, first of all: Respect, 2. If the Westerner demonstrates to be highly adaptable, nearly endless opportunities waiting to be picked up 3. access to funding beyond imagination.... but back to the opportunities, coming here and contributing to the successful development of an industry in it's infancy is not only rewarding but highly beneficial, not only in terms of money but more in gaining international experience in a highly diversed cultural environment, also not to forget the pure excitment witnessing things changing almost over night, the pace seems brutal and is indeed tiring but it is like a drug, when i go back to Germany i feel as if i took a pack valium, soooooooo slooooooow and nothing new. Which brings us to 'NEW', coming here means learning new skill-sets, be it exploring the nature, the cousine, the women (ahhhmmm...), the different tastes, etc. on the business side of things, the different commons, practices and traditions, you learn to see the big picture, understand market dynamics, socities and what not. If you want come here and just eat burgers, because that let you feel secure, you will for sure miss the most import points in traveling around the world. After when you come back home, you will understand and find it quite amusing how the rest is not aware of sitting in their own tiny boxes but still think that 'only' the other people don't get it. Your understanding of things greatly improved and you'll realize what is wrong in your culture/society and you'll be able to make a sound judgment rather being ignorant because of not knowing what is going on....if that's not good enough, what else do you expect from your life?

Mark

Wow, I actually read all of this. None of it answered the question really. You touched on it a bit by saying Chinese people worked in western companies under western guidance. This doesn't mean anything. These aren't Chinese companies with full Chinese staff.

You're just rambling now and making it worse.

Let your work speak for itself. Until then can we close this thread

[Andreas.Jablonka]

aehm if i close it he cant post his work ;)
I think lets give everybody some breathing room.

[Tagger]

at this point, we still live in a situation that once people get good, they start asking for money, and, like stated above, if they can get good money by moving to the states (for instance), they will... has nothing to do with culture or history of a country.

[boomji]

I'm surprised deke hasn't chimed in at all...having first hand experience.

cuz he's gone from diplomatic to Uber diplomatic...sad.
Mark,mebbe you can do whatever you did on those poor unsuspecting HR folks to deke.He's been incredibly ZEN this season.


China is developing their own Stealth bombers and...
Great now the NSA is tracking this site.
Ut upShay! Sheesh :D


3. access to funding beyond imagination
hmmm so this means Big-Bucks for the expat or Big-Bucks only if you can roll with the punches.I think you've mentioned a couple of times that you don't go there for the money and hence this contradicts things a bit.


b

[Andreas.Jablonka]

actually I dont think he ever said that WESTENERS should not go there for money. he clearly states he is interested in western talent and therefore ready to pay for it.

[donaldStrubler]

actually I dont think he ever said that WESTENERS should not go there for money. he clearly states he is interested in western talent and therefore ready to pay for it.

Western Standards AT CHINESE RATES

[tommy138]

Western Standards AT CHINESE RATES

if he's paying chinese people low wages (compared to the west), he can surely still afford to pay a decent wage for western artists and still offer "chinese" rates :)

[Andreas.Jablonka]

Western Standards AT CHINESE RATES

im sure he meant western standards of the PRODUCT at Chinese rates but with western rates for western talent in china ;))

[donaldStrubler]

im sure he meant western standards of the PRODUCT at Chinese rates but with western rates for western talent in china ;))

I see. I guess I understand what he's trying to explain-

[kyrgr]

My english don't help in such long posts but since when people in this site care to reduce the
production cost? Damn! Looks like i mistranslated hundreds of posts all this time.

[Andreas.Jablonka]

My english don't help in such long posts but since when people in this site care to reduce the
production cost? Damn! Looks like i mistranslated hundreds of posts all this time.

what do you mean?

[kyrgr]

There's some guy who says he can deliver cheap work.
But most in the site do their own work, right?
Why are you so interested after all? I'd say the whole point of this thread is...you tell me.

[quety101]

eh?

[tommy138]

There's some guy who says he can deliver cheap work.
But most in the site do their own work, right?
Why are you so interested after all? I'd say the whole point of this thread is...you tell me.

Are you saying, why should we care if someone can offer cheap work, and why are we getting our panties in a bunch? ;)

I think you're not realizing that it's a global economy (at least for feature film) nowadays.
The work is moving from country to country.
So technically, it could be possible, that mkolars is offering cheap rates, but the quality is as good as in the West.
The thing people are discussing, is whether or not a lot of the work will eventually be going to china.

I take it you are a freelancer, doing local work, so you don't see the point in discussing whether or not china is undercutting people, because they aren't bidding on the jobs you are going for.

But if you work in big vfx studios, it is kind of relevant. Just ask some of the LA guys, who've seen a lot of jobs go to Vancouver and London (or so they say ;)).

[Boris28]

Western Standards AT CHINESE RATES

haha love this reply :P You guys still talk about this. I lost interests long time ago.

[kyrgr]

Ok i got the spirit. Actually i'm an amateur who does simple vfx in his spare time-don't plan
to make a single dollar but it's fun. Watching reels and posts here even if this guy comes up
with a descent reel-which i doubt- i don't believe Asians are ready to match the western
standards and that also goes for my own countrymen( sad and hard to admit it).
Actually i started this post before Boris28.