Shake vs After Effect?

[Angel_Ice]

Hi, I'm reading this forum and wow guyz, it's the best!

I read that a lot of you use Shake.
This means it's better and more professional that After Effect or it's just a choice like using Maya or SoftImage in 3D?

I'm starting in this world so it's better to going learning AE or skip to Shake?

[worldofmaya]

Hi!
As in 3D it depends on what you wanna do... if you just start, I would give After Effects a try... if you're used to Photoshop it's even easier. There exists try-outs for both of them...
-klaus

[Angel_Ice]

Why it depends what I wanna do? which are the most important differences?

[scwatman]

Hey

If your wanting to get more into the feature film side of things then id say go for shake. If your wanting to do motion graphic type work then you could think about after effects.

I cant say im really a fan of after efffects tho id say combustion is better. Give me shake any day.

[Angel_Ice]

Hmm...this means that SHakes is not for Motion Graphics?
Do u think that Combustion is better than AE? I found the AE timeline more usable and fast.

[scwatman]

Well with shake 4 you can make motion graphics as you can work in 3d space but its a bit of overkill for that i think.

Its all really down to which one you like better in all honesty you could do exactly the same thing in after effects as you could in combustion if you knew how to use them. They are both more layer interfaces where as shake works using seperate nodes and a tree.

What kind of work do you wan to do?

[Angel_Ice]

Basicly i see Shake is for Apple and I use PC (I'm not a fan of mac), what is the same product on pc world?AE?
I'm learning. I'm fashinated of what u do here guyz. It's amazing what I see around.

I think I don't know well what I want to do. Before joining this forum I thougth that all this is called "visual effect" so that is a visual effect artist.
Now i think there is someone more inside color correction, some other in other special effects.
What I want really to do is work with special effects like seen on Constantine movie for exemple(i'm not talking about 3D, i know that is another big hard work), to know like to composite 3D with real life shots; I want really to work in commercials, for exemple know like to clean a city from cars and make it empty...somethink that envolves the creative process, color correction.

Make thinks cool! I suppose my answer is not much specific...can u help me figure out what is the best for me?

[scwatman]

Well is sounds to me like you want to work more on the 2d side. Working with film and video files and then adding all the other elements to make the final shot. That is called compositing and thats what i do.

Ill break it down a little for you. Viual effects or post production is what the industry is called within that there is a lot of different jobs. Both on the 3d and 2d sides.

On the 3d side you have modelers , animators, match movers and people who work with particles maiing CG smoke, fire etc.

On the 2d side you have roto artists who remove unwanted elements like wires, tracking markers etc , Junior compositors who do the more simple shots and compositors who do the main and harder shots and deal with colour corrction etc. The also matte painters and texture artists. IM sure ive missed someone out but thats a basic outline.

On the software side shake is more aimed at film work and costs a small fortune. After effects and combustiob is more for TV work and motion graphics but there isnt any reason you couldn't do film work with after effects or Tv with shake, many people do.

You can use linux instead of windows on your PC if you want although youd need to learn that anyway.

Its just most studios want you to know the package they work with, where are you from or where do you want to work?

[Angel_Ice]

You helping me so much my friend. I'm starting to see a little light at the end of this tunnel :-)

I'm from Prague (czech Republic) but now I live and work in Rome (Italy). I work in a multimedia agency. My role is the creative direction but we are just 5 person here so the name "creative director" is too big; it's better to say i'm the creative director of my self, so when i decide what to do, I morph into the graphics designer and into what is necessary. I'm here who have the idea and who realize it in Photoshop or animate it in After Effect. I have a good basics with animation theory. I make a lot of flash animation. I learned some years ago the basics of Maya (3d software) so I know like it works.

It's really not much important where to work (mostly in europe but it's not important).

I think like u said I prefer the 2D side of visual effects but it's possible I one day learn better 3D and can do the both...but i suppose the work is so hard that there is no time to make both right?

I'm not scaring about do hard work, this is a passion for me, it's somethink more...
I'm 27, working with graphics 7-8 years.

I hope to work one day with music videos or commercials (sure, work in movies would be great!) but really don't know from what to start. Learn well a software? ok, but on which videos to try?

>>>Its just most studios want you to know the package they work with
You are right! which is the most used package?

U say i need to learn linux?

The roto artists are who paint all frames one by one right?

[scwatman]

I dont really know a great deal about the VFX industry in prague or italy but im sure if you emailed some companies and asked what software they use they would tell you.

If your not looking to work in films then i dont suppose you need to learn shake. If i was wanting to go into commercials id want to learn combustion I think. I know more companies here in london use it than after effects. Once you learn that you could move up to inferno or flame, which are used for high end commercials and music promos. If you decide to go for after effects or combustion you dont need to learn linux as they run on windows.

If you just learn 2d first it woule be easier but knowing 3d aswell would be a plus for you. However when your in a company u'll most likely just be asked to only do 2d stuff, unless its a really small company.

Yeah roto work frame by frame and in all honesty its likely you'll start doing this kind of thing. Its not as bad as it sounds.

[Angel_Ice]

Like I said my not looking a job in Prague or Italy, I'm looking for a good opportunity enywhere. Like I said, it's a passion for me.

I can't say if I'm looking to work on films or not. I never done that so I can't see the difference between a film a a music video.

How to skip from combustion to Inferno? Combustion is expensive but it have a human price...Inferno is impossible, there are no trial couz its a real hardware machine right?

I think rotoscoping can be cool, of course difficult but cool.

Do u think Combustion is good as AE?

Thanks for your time!!!

Can I ask you somethink more? I have so many question to do...

[scwatman]

Well inferno is made by the same people as combustion and is just more complex version. If you knew combustion the jump up wouldnt be that big. You can get a demo version of combustion from magazines etc if your lucky.

Ive not really used after effects or combustion ive just heard that combustion is better and i know it gets used more in studios.

well i wanted to work in film because i love films, if u love music videos then do that. Go for the one i like the best.

yeah sure ask what you want.

[Angel_Ice]

The first is personal, feel free to not answer if u want:
How long u work in visual effect and how u found the first work?

Do u worked on Harry Potter movie?

Now not personals questions:
Can u give me some tips for doing the best and be able to find a job in visual effects?
I mean...since i have not a video camera, whith what can I experiment?What can I do to learn these softwares, what kind of material I can use to promote my self?I have to buy a DV camera and make my own shots right?
Hope u undertsand what I'm asking.

For exemple now I'm working on After Effects and I'm testing a lot with home made movies or just with stills. Playing a lot with motion graphics and so on.

Thanks for your time! Really really!

[scwatman]

Ive worked in VFX for around 6 months so not long really. I went to a VFX school called escape around a year ago and worked on my own stuff for a while and got a job at MPC and now im at double negative.

Yeah i worked on Harry Potter and the Goblet of fire recently.

Yeah i found the best way to get footage to work on was to rent a camera for the weekend. It was a 3CCD cannon XL1. Im sure u can find a place to rent a camera without having to buy one.

the showreel that got me my first job is here:

http://www.basebid.co.uk/millshowreel.mov

its not great. my new one is much better but im not allowed to show that yet. as the films havent been released yet.

[Angel_Ice]

Wow...really nice reel!

How u feel when u work on a such important film like harry potter?

WHich software did u used working on your reel?

For exemple the scene of the shoes like invisible man...did u cleaned that plate frame by frame? Which software is necessary to do that? Photoshop?

Can u give me the link to the school u have done?

Another question and I stop for today on that i can't find an answer is: rotoscoping.

How to...u have a movie and u have export in in Photoshop and retouch all frames by frame or there is some more professional way? can u explainme please?

I learned so much today my friend. You are the man, I really thank you for your time and for sharing your knoweledge.

[scwatman]

its not a problem i'm answering you in between renders at work.

Yeah its cool to work on films like that. It the reason im do it.

i only used shake to make my reel. You can rotoscope in after effects and combusiotn aswell. You just go through your shot a frame at a time changing things. Rotoscoping is a big subject though there are a few different things in it. You dont always have to go through frame by frame. Things can be tracked and animated to save time. When i have time ill write you a more detailed description.

for the shoes i made a still of the background and put it over the top of the legs and then rotoscoped the tops of the shoes and placed them back in the shot.

The school i went to is
http://www.escapestudios.co.uk

There are DVD training things aswell like CMI studios.

[Angel_Ice]

Cool, here are not good schools and also if, i have no money for doing a school like that :(

Oh yeh, when u have time, please, write down somethink more about rotoscoping, it would be great!!!

Thank u for all of your help my friend!!!
Have a nice evening.

[Liquid]

Hi,
I learned alot from you to, thank you for that. I'm also a vfx noob, and have a few questions:
-Which course did you did at escape. I'm thinking of, when i finish school :happydevi i'm going to do the vfx comprehensive course, is this a good course if i want to do 3d and compositing for feature film projects (like you :cool: )
-I also like to know more about rotoscoping, but i know a bit more about it than angel_ice i think. Is there a good dvd for rotoscoping in shake?
-Are the gnomon dvd's good? I mean i know they are pretty good, but if i understand/watched all the dvd's from shake gnomon got, do you think i can composit in shake pretty well (with my artistic ability :veryfunny)?
-DO you think i'm far behind when i have shake 2.5 on windows (last version for windows) to shake 4? I mean could i follow the gnomon dvd's and do i miss some nice tools, and what tools?

Thank you for your time, if you are willing to answer them :thumbsup:

[worldofmaya]

I wouldn't focus too much on an specific application... most of the different applications do the same under the hood. If you're used to a node based approach like the one in Maya you'll love the way shake works. shake 2.5 should do the job. What i remember about the gnomon DVDs especially the keying dvd they show off higher keying function with Primatte and Keylight, which is part of shake 3 or so... I think there was an review somewhere on one of thos community sites.
Also have a look at the "making of Van Helsing" trailer. ILM made some pretty cool things with After Effects... at the end it depends on your artistic skills... with an good graphical background and Win/PC, I would recommend After Effects...
Don't think that it helps to learn combustion to get your hands on one of the highend discreet systems (flame/inferno), combustion was developed from another company and now they assimilate stuff from the upper end :)
-Klaus

[Angel_Ice]

Thanks for your comments WorldofMaya!

I see around that it seems that After Effects is not very popular. For exemple in this forummostky of you are using Shake. I suppose there is some reason.

Yes, I have avery good graohical background on win/pc machines so for now my choice is AE but i'm considering to take a look to shake too.
The problem is that it works under Mac and I don't like so much work with a Mac.

I have downloaded the trial of Shake 4 so i'm going to install it.

Ik, I can't install Shake on My eMac couz it seems it need a G5 or somethink like that? How can I install Shake on my PC? I need to install Linux?

[worldofmaya]

Shake for Linux works pretty well too... the company I work for also thought about changing to something else and shake would have been an option. But the workflow was too slow for us. Getting footage into linux isn't that easy... perhaps this is much easier on Apple. Anyway, I was able to test a linux version on an exhibition for a day. The workstation was a boxx system with an redhat installed. You don't need more. But as said before getting footage into shake/linux isn't the best workflow, for example on the inferno system you just put a tape into the player and transfer it to the raid and afterwards back to tape.
The same thing worked pretty much okay using Windows with the combination AE/PS and Liquid for editing (doing TV graphics stuff). But I'm with you when it come to Macs, but this is something different. The only bad thing I see with AE is that it's a little bit slow.
Why not start with the old shake? Besides some not very important features it should be okay to use shake 2.5 comapred to the newer versions. Tracker jobs should be no problem and basic keying too...
-klaus

[Liquid]

Thanks for your answers bould you be so kind to answer my previous questions :D?

-Which course did you did at escape. I'm thinking of, when i finish school i'm going to do the vfx comprehensive course, is this a good course if i want to do 3d and compositing for feature film projects (like you )
-I also like to know more about rotoscoping, but i know a bit more about it than angel_ice i think. Is there a good dvd for rotoscoping in shake?
-Are the gnomon dvd's good? I mean i know they are pretty good, but if i understand/watched all the dvd's from shake gnomon got, do you think i can composit in shake pretty well (with my artistic ability )?
-DO you think i'm far behind when i have shake 2.5 on windows (last version for windows) to shake 4? I mean could i follow the gnomon dvd's and do i miss some nice tools, and what tools?

Thank you for your time, if you are willing to answer them

[Aruna]

I'm just going to chime in here..



-I also like to know more about rotoscoping, but i know a bit more about it than angel_ice i think. Is there a good dvd for rotoscoping in shake?
Rotoscoping is painfully simple to understand, but it takes a long time to master. Rotoscopers are the unsung heroes of film vfx, I think. All compositors have done roto in the past, and are proficient in it. That said, you don't need a DVD to learn rotoscoping. Take a video sequence, and trace the character throughout the shot. A successful rotoscoper will be able to make the matte of the foreground person so well that it is just like a greenscreen or bluescreen key. Very tight and attached to a person.


-Are the gnomon dvd's good? I mean i know they are pretty good, but if i understand/watched all the dvd's from shake gnomon got, do you think i can composit in shake pretty well (with my artistic ability )?
It's more than just watching a DVD. You have to put the skill to practice. Work on your own shot footage, and it'll make you a better artist. I have not seen the Gnomon DVD set.



-DO you think i'm far behind when i have shake 2.5 on windows (last version for windows) to shake 4? I mean could i follow the gnomon dvd's and do i miss some nice tools, and what tools?

The newer the version, the more shortcuts you have available to you. What would have taken an hour in shake 2.5, now takes 15 minutes. There have been no drastic changes to the interface or to the basic compositing structure of shake since 2.5, so you will be fine.

[scwatman]

Hey

I thought that all the people wondering about rotoscoping would be interested in watching the rotoscoping video diary for king kong.

Peter jackson does it again, what a guy!

[scwatman]

-Which course did you did at escape. I'm thinking of, when i finish school i'm going to do the vfx comprehensive course, is this a good course if i want to do 3d and compositing for feature film projects (like you )

Hey I did they compositing comprehensive about 18 months ago think. Ive heard good things about the VFX comp course but its a lot of money. Escape is good and loads of people in the UK (worldwide) VFX industry went there. So if you really want to do it and have the money then do for it.


-I also like to know more about rotoscoping, but i know a bit more about it than angel_ice i think. Is there a good dvd for rotoscoping in shake?

I agree with aruna I dont think you really need a DVD to learn to rotoscope. I dont suppose it would hurt but its better to just get some footage and get your hands dirty. Even if you capture some footage off a DVD and roto round people or whatever.


-Are the gnomon dvd's good? I mean i know they are pretty good, but if i understand/watched all the dvd's from shake gnomon got, do you think i can composit in shake pretty well (with my artistic ability )?

To be a good compositor you need to know what compositing is all about. id say buy a book and learn the science behind it aswell. Then if you combine that, your artistic flair and then knowing the package you'll be laughing.

Using shake 2.5 is fine. Its the way i worked at home. I didnt have linux or a mac so i stuck to the last windows version. The jump to 3.5 or 4 isnt that big really.

cheers

[Angel_Ice]

HEy guyz,

This thread is really really amazing! I'm learning a lot. I'm realyhappy to have found this place. Thanks you all again for sharing your experience!

Can you suggest some another good book about compoisiting?
The Art and Science of Digital Compositing is one of the best right?

[scwatman]

Hey

Yeah thats a good book but if your wanting a more simple book to start with go for

Digital Compositing for Film and Video by Steven wright

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0240804554/qid=1127985360/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl/202-6862337-3787809

Oh and if you like this thread check out the new one ive started - ask the junior artist

http://www.vfxtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=20445#post2044

If you have any more questions

cheers

[worldofmaya]

Yeah... The Art and Science of Digital Compositing is something like the bible... there's also:
Digital Compositing In Depth: The Only Guide to Post Production for Visual Effects in Film
Matchmoving: The Invisible Art of Camera Tracking
The Digital Compositing in Depth comes with some really nice examples, they use serveral different apps.
-klaus

[Angel_Ice]

Thanks guyz...have a nice day all!

[Angel_Ice]

I have installed shake 2.51 and i'm looking around. Yes it's very different from AE and it seems at firts sight it do less thinks than AE can do but I suppose it's just the first opinion.

Anyway it's very cool the node way to manage plates. To use Shake 4 I need to haver a G5?
Scwat, how u learnt Shake?

[Ranjith Kizhakkey]

Well to Start With After Effects is Fun, and if you want to go deep inside the Rabbit Hole then Shake will me my Opinion

[Angel_Ice]

I want to go inside the Rabbit Hole...so I have to skip to Shake right?
One probem, I have no idea from where to start...

[alive]

Angel Ice, the gnomon 101 set of DVD's are really very good. It's really very good. From fundamentals of VFX comping to fundamentals of shake to intermediate use of shake. The Color correction dvd is a disappointment though.

[scwatman]

Hey

Its true shake doesnt look much when you first open it but its 1000 times more complex than after effects. Well I paid to learn shake at escape but im sure some training dvds ect would help u.

[Angel_Ice]

Thnaks guyz...eheheh..I feel like I felt 8 year ago when I skipped from Corel Draw to Photoshop: photoshop was so...empty...now, i can't imagine my life without...

[GhostDragon]

Hello ...

Thanks Angel Ice for starting this thread ...
before reading this thread I just started a new thread and I was asking questions .. more then what I asked I got answers on this thread ... Thanks guys for all educative information you have contributed to this thread ...
I really appreciate your time and sharing your experience

Hope to be as good as you guys one day

Thanks again

[Angel_Ice]

THis is a great community!

[GhostDragon]

I aggree ... everybody can learn a lot especially with information exchange (tats wjat we were doing in school when we were though by ignored teachers who was just memorizing the material that they were teaching ;) )
of cours we cant exchange info with pros ;) but for us the beginners its one of the best way I think and yes this is a great community ;)
I really love this place

[Aruna]

Of course you can exchange information with the pros. Just ask. There are more here than you might think!

[GhostDragon]

No I mean exchanging ... of course I can learn a lot from pros .. but I cant give much ;) thats what I ment by exchanging ;)

thanks a lot thou for your helps I will be asking so many questions that you guys will be tired of me ;) (I hope not)

by the way I really loved your demo Aruna ...
my idol was Allan Mckay (Particle Guy) with his particles, up until I saw your real ;)

Matrix and Hellboy had nice FXs...

Seems I willl be focusing on Particles ... fluids FX more on 3D side ... but want to learn some compositing too ...

do you have some work on Particle FX?

thanks a lot for everything ... I really feel like when I was learning pogramming for the first time ... like a little child keeps discovering new things and gets very happy ;)

K thats it for now ...

[Martys]

Hi, I would ask, what is done duel between Voldemort and Harry Potter Goblet of Fire? How, for example, red and green beam from a magic wand. Then a realflow, midway between red and green beam. Just generally, how is it done? In what programs to create these effects? Thank you for your reply.

[Loud]

Hi, I would ask, what is done duel between Voldemort and Harry Potter Goblet of Fire? How, for example, red and green beam from a magic wand. Then a realflow, midway between red and green beam. Just generally, how is it done? In what programs to create these effects? Thank you for your reply.
Not meaning to assist in dredging up a really old thread only to hijack it, but the specific package used for stuff like that isn't as important as what the software does. The liquid-looking stuff was obviously done with some particle dynamics, so it could have been Realflow, Houdini, Maya, something proprietary made by the company that did it specifically for those shots or something else entirely that I'm not thinking of or have even heard of. However, you're simply not going to open Realflow and hit the "Voldemort vs. Harry Potter" preset and make the exact same effect. It could have been any number of things, but the point is to learn the principles and the science of what you're doing and then learn the software.

[Martys]

ok, thank you for your reply. How can these effects to learn? Are there tutorials?

PS: Sorry for stupid questions :-)

[Loud]

ok, thank you for your reply. How can these effects to learn? Are there tutorials?

PS: Sorry for stupid questions :-)

I'm not an FX TD, so I don't know exactly what the best approach might be to start from scratch to learn how to do that stuff, except I've played a bit with some of that in Lightwave and dabbled a tiny bit in Realflow. Realflow is really good for that kind of stuff, so download a trial and watch some "getting started" videos. Learn what it can do. There's even a web forum dedicated to Realflow, simply called www.realflowforum.com. Do some poking around and you'll find what you need.

[Tagger]

please start a new thread...