Ask the junior artist.

[scwatman]

Hey

I thought id follow in the footsteps the great people on this site that let you ask them questions about what they do. Although im not to the high standard of aruna or the other compsitors on this site i thought i could shine a light on the lower end of the industry.

Im a roto artist currently at double negative in london and have worked on films like Harry Potter, Corpse Bride and currently Flyboys.

Fell free to ask me anything you want from how i got my job, where i went to school or even my shoe size. Illl try and give a good...ish answer to everything.

Thanks

scwatman.

[Aruna]

Q: How did you get your job (inside connection, persistence, decent reel, right place at the right time)?
Q: How complex are the roto mattes you are asked to create, and do you answer to the comper of the shot you're rotoing in addition to your roto lead?
Q: How tall are you?
Q: Are you single, living in London?

[scwatman]

Q: How did you get your job (inside connection, persistence, decent reel, right place at the right time)?

Im sure everyone says this but the first job really is the hardest to get. I spent 6 months working on my showreel after finishing a course at Escape Studios in london. Although i did have some footage and shots i could have put on my reel I wanted to have my own stuff that set my apart from the other people from escape. I rented a cannon XL1 and went round filming stuff. Only on a roto basis i didnt see the point in doing huge composites when id be going for a roto job.

I then sent my showreel to the mill and MPC. I was then asked to attend an interview at both and in the end was offered a job at MPC working on Harry Potter 4. I think it always comes down to luck. If they werent looking then i wouldnt of got anything.

If anyone wants to see my old (crap) showreel its online here

http://www.basebid.co.uk/millshowreel.mov



Q: How complex are the roto mattes you are asked to create, and do you answer to the comper of the shot you're rotoing in addition to your roto lead?

Well at MPC i worked mainly with a roto supervisor and didnt really have much contact with the specific compositor. Im now at Double Negative and im talk with both the supervisor and the compositor. The supervisor tells me what is needed and ill do it. The i can check with the compositor whenever i need to see if im on the right track or they need anythin else. I have to say i prefer it that way. I just learn more.


Q: How tall are you?

Im just over 6 foot


Q: Are you single, living in London?

Nope i am not. I convinced my girlfriend to move down to London recently from sunny Glasgow. Now I just have to get her to go to LA. I think that will be and easier sell somehow.

[doen]

Lucky bastard ;)

Q: Don't you ever wish you that you could do the actual comping instead of roto, or do you like roto better?
Q: How much work do you have to do? How many shots did you do for HP4 and what did you have to do in them, how exact did the mattes have to be?
Q: How did your first interviews go (besides the "I-got-the-job-part")? What did they ask you? Was it based solely on your reel or was the interview very important?
Q: What's it like working for Double Negative (and what was it like at MPC)?
Q: Is your left ear larger than your right?
Q: Are you satisfied with what you do?
Q: How did you get your girlfriend to move to London to you? And how are you planning on getting her to move to LA? :)

(more to come... I just have to figure out what to ask you...)

[alive]

Answer the following:- 20 marks

Q. What were you asked at the interviews? - 5 marks
Q. What is your age, and when did you start comping? - 10 marks
Q. What soft you comp on at double negative - 5 marks
Q. What is the meaning of life? - The million dollar question!

[scwatman]

Hey doen


Lucky bastard

Indeed i am


Q: Don't you ever wish you that you could do the actual comping instead of roto, or do you like roto better?

Yeah i cant wait until i get to do the final comps but roto is where it all starts. A lucky few get to go straight into junior comping (well so i hear ive never seen one) but most people start as roto artist and then move up to junior comp and then comp. I think its the best way to do it, every compositor needs to have a grounding in roto and doing for a year is the best way.


Q: How much work do you have to do? How many shots did you do for HP4 and what did you have to do in them, how exact did the mattes have to be?

Well the film im currently working on Flyboys has been a busy schedule. At one stage i was doing two or three shots day (the more simple ones tho). I cant go into exact detail on what i did on HP4 as the film isnt out yet but i did a lot of marker removal, other remova (i cant talk about it they'll come get me!!!), sky replacement and a lot of characater roto for all the magic and stuff. Im not sure how many i did i worked on it for 9 weeks and a shot was between 1 and 2 days, u do the math. As i was doin marker removal and paint out from the final live plates it had to be pixel perfect. As did the roto.


Q: How did your first interviews go (besides the "I-got-the-job-part")? What did they ask you? Was it based solely on your reel or was the interview very
important?

Well first off i went to the interview in a tshirt and jeans its very layed back over here (noy sure if US is the same but it probably is). Yeah the question were more about my reel and what i had done, there was none of that "so where do you see yourself in five years?" or "why should MPC hire you?" shit. They were all really nice and made my feel at ease. I think if you reel is up to standard and your not a dick you'll be fine. Its just getting your foot in the door thats the problem.


Q: What's it like working for Double Negative (and what was it like at MPC)?

MPC (first place i worked) - Its a very cool place to work maybe the best staff room ive ever seen, great pool table I had many late night games on that bad boy. All the free coffee, teas, coke and spring water you can drink (although most places have that). Everyone is cool and friendly. I always heard MPC was a bad place to work but i have no idea where they got that notion.

Dneg - Also a great place to work. Its strange but as yet i havent met someone i thought was a complete tit yet in this industry but im sure they are out there waiting for me. Oh and i get dual monitors here which i didnt at MPC, very nice.


Q: Is your left ear larger than your right?

In all honesty ive not idea but im eager to find out. ask me again 2moro.


Q: Are you satisfied with what you do?

Yeah, its the job ive always wanted to do. Although im not a compositor yet im more than enjoying my time as a roto artist. OK it can get a bit repetitive with some shots but thats life. I think it helps that im working on some great films along the way.


Q: How did you get your girlfriend to move to London to you? And how are you planning on getting her to move to LA?

Well i have naked pictures of her and i said id put them online unless she moved down. Nah she was great about it really London is the place to be for my job and most others actually. Now i just threw the LA idea into conversation once and she said ok, when? I think its the sun and the beaches.


Hope that helps

cheers

[scwatman]

Hey dinraj


Q. What were you asked at the interviews? - 5 marks

I was asked a bit about my reel and my CV (resume). I then went through my showreel and talked a little bit about each shot. They just wanted to know what i had done in the past, if i had worked with film etc and what software and operatin systems i had used. As i was moving down from Glasgow they wanted to know how i would do that etc. Oh and if you get the grand tour take that as a good...ish sign.


Q. What is your age, and when did you start comping? - 10 marks

Im 22, I finished my course at Escape studios when i was 21 i then went home for a bit to work on my showreel and save money to move back down. Ive been working as a roto artist for around 6 months now.



Q. What soft you comp on at double negative - 5 marks

As with most studios in london we use shake (im currently on version 4, its got a few bugs and things im not to sure if i like yet) to comp with. I also do my roto in shake but the studio has their own roto package i can use. I just like to have everything in one package instead of jumping between two and having to save out and import things. If its just a roto shot then fair enough but if its a shot that needs loads of seperate roto and paint out I like shake.


Q. What is the meaning of life? - The million dollar question!

Ahh now i actually know this one but im going to have to keep the question to either me, my work and the industry. Sorry. Ill make that thread one day.

cheers

[doen]

Oh and if you get the grand tour take that as a good...ish sign.

Yeah, that probably should be a good sign, but in my case it wasn't... I never heard from that house again, even though I already got to meet everybody :D

[scwatman]

Hey doen

Sorry to hear that

Yeah I say good.....ish as ive heard that happen to some peolpe i know.

[Angel_Ice]

Hi Scwatman,

Many thnaks for your sharing and your help offering, It's very appreciated!

[DavidW]

Yeah, it's been a nice read. Always fun to hear how people get into the industry and how different companies are. :)

[Angel_Ice]

Direct question: how much they pay you?
I'm not really interested how much they pay YOU but generally how much pay for that kind of work.

[scwatman]

Direct question: how much they pay you?
I'm not really interested how much they pay YOU but generally how much pay for that kind of work.

Although the pay depends on each artist but if someone is coming into the VFX at the roto level (in London) they can get paid between £75 - £95 a day. I know its a bit more in America and NZ.

[Liquid]

A question from me:
- I'm trying to do different things like taking real footage, track it, model 3d props and then composit it etc. but is it true that in a real company you can only do one thing, like rotoing, comping, making 3d models, or making particle effects etc.?
- Also did you did comping alone, or did you also did something like i do (or trying to do :D) ? And if it's a yes what software did you use?

THanks for your time, great tread

[Angel_Ice]

Question about an effect in your first showreel:

There is a scene of your shoes. OK, I understand how u did that but what I really don't understand how you made the inner back side of your shoes...when u have masked your ankles, u did a mask around the ankles but how you made the inner shoes side to make like the shoes are really empty?

[alive]

Common question:

Q: Can I use the footage my senior comps comp with, and comp 'em for my own practice, and use them in my showreel? Has anybody done it?

[Keating]

Let me get in on the action:

What are you duties in the run of a day. How long does it take to do each things you might do? ( Is it a nonstop roto-fest ? )

Thanks :)

[scwatman]

Hey Liquid



- I'm trying to do different things like taking real footage, track it, model 3d props and then composit it etc. but is it true that in a real company you can only do one thing, like rotoing, comping, making 3d models, or making particle effects etc.?

Well the companies ive worked at are on the larger side of the indusrty and have 1 person for each task. The roto artist willl just roto and the match mover will match move they very rarely jump around. I think it would be a plus if you knew how to do a wide range of things. It would become more benificial further up the line (comps) when you could just roto or match move something your working on rather than send it away and waiting for its return. In smaller companies who dont have the luxury of 100s of artists there is a great chance of you using your different skills and it could even get you the job over someone who can only roto.

In all honesty i think you shouold decide which area you like best and try to stick more to that. At least until youve got a job. If your applying for a roto job the dont reallly care how good your models are (although they could come in handy for compositing CG).



- Also did you did comping alone, or did you also did something like i do (or trying to do ) ? And if it's a yes what software did you use?

Yeah I stuck to the 2d side mainly ive never really be drawn to 3d that much. To hard i suppose. I can match move to an ok level and ive done some matte painting but at the moment ive stuck to the compsiting side. I just think at this stage in my career I want to be a expert in 2d rather than ok in everythin, I can hopefully learn a few things along the way. I think particles interst me seeing what the guys can do with them is really cool.

The software i do use is mainly shake but im also good with photoshop and ok with combustion. Ive used Boujou for match moving but like i say i mainly stick to 2d and shake. The 3d guys here use Maya here if your interested.

cheers

[scwatman]

Hey angel_ice


There is a scene of your shoes. OK, I understand how u did that but what I really don't understand how you made the inner back side of your shoes...when u have masked your ankles, u did a mask around the ankles but how you made the inner shoes side to make like the shoes are really empty?

Oh its really not that hard. Firstly I made a clean plate of the background without the guy in it (i mean made it with the camera, no point painting out if you can just tell him to move and press record). I the cut the bottom half of it off across the wall and then placed it over the soes. Like magic no legs. I then rotoed around the shoe tops and laces then placed them back over the clean plate. Its much easier to cover something over and then roto it back in than to try and roto out the background. For the inside of the shoes i used a roto shape in shake and coloured it black (I may of put a gradient on it i cant remember now) and then animated it to look right (well slightly look right) I then painted bits to make it look a bit better.

I then coloured it to look more like film rather than miniDV.

Oh I didnt record the clean plate for long enough so i had to make it a still frame and i forgot to regrain it after. I hope no one noticed that much.


Hope that helped

Cheers

[scwatman]

Hey dinraj


Q: Can I use the footage my senior comps comp with, and comp 'em for my own practice, and use them in my showreel? Has anybody done it?

I suppose it depends on you supervisor saying yes, I dont think it would be a problem. If you where just taking his comp and passing it off as your own then there might be a problem and I think you would have to say it wasnt the final version that made the film.

[scwatman]

Hey keating


What are you duties in the run of a day. How long does it take to do each things you might do? ( Is it a nonstop roto-fest ? )

Well it depends if i have shots scheduled to work on already. Ill say i havent for this:

Well ill come in to work have some breakfast and grab a coffee. Then ill check my company email. Then have a look at my schedule (if i have shots from the day before i simply get on with them) for new shots. I'll then go down and see my supervisor or the compositor to see what the shot needs. Mostly you can tell what a shot needs but its best to ask. Ill then go back up to my desk and get started.

Time wise it really depends on what a shot needs. Recently ive been aiming for a shot or two a day. The shots im getting now are for a mian sequence in the film and tend to take a bit longer and need more TLC. Marker removal and rig removal shots are quite straight forward its the long roto shots that take the most time to get right.

On Harry Potter 4 I took about a day or two a shot but that was my first job and i was a little slower back then.

cheers

[alive]

Q: How do you plan to finish a work by the deadline? Especially when you have many to do at the same time.

[scwatman]

Hey


Q: How do you plan to finish a work by the deadline? Especially when you have many to do at the same time.

Well the production staff who plan everyones shecdules do a good job and have a good idea of how long each shot should take its just up to me to match it. As yet I havent had any problems other than shake scripts getting corrupted and needing redone but thats stuff happens. Once you've done quite a few shots you can work out in your head how long it will take for each step, if they give you a shot thats harder than they thought you just tell them and they'll juggle things a bit but as I say that hasnt happened yet.

I only ever deal with one shot at a time (unless a shot needs fixing, changing or extending then they can mount up.) ill be given 1 shot for monday 2 for tuesday etc. But i try to just take 1 shot at a time and not worry about the next one.

cheers

[Keating]

Thanks for the reply, very informative :)

So, now I have another question. What is the work environment like? I mean, is it a high-pressure environment, or is it fairly easy-going so long as work is being completed? ( I ask because I've had jobs where things were tense regardless of the actual amount of work being done ).

Thanks!

[Robert]

Im interested to know what your level was before going to the course at Escape Studios? How much that really helped you improving your skills/reel etc? And if Escape made difference for MPC/DE or was it just about the reel for them, (before interview of course) period. ?

thanks.

[naveen]

which software did u started working with first(for rotoing).i m learning combustion myself,currently working as graphic designer.want to become a hard core compositor.i m good at photoshop.can u please tell me what short of photoshop skills helps for looking forward to be a compositor or a roto artist who works on highend programs like shake.i have idea like being good at making accurate selections using beizer tool(pen tool in photoshop),good at making different alpha channels ,understanding of tranparency or opacity helps in looking forward to be a compositor.....does it?plz tell me if i have any misunderstanding.

[Angel_Ice]

Thanks for your answers my friend. Very very appreciated like always!

[scwatman]

Hey Keating


What is the work environment like? I mean, is it a high-pressure environment, or is it fairly easy-going so long as work is being completed?

Your exactly right if the work is being done and to the correct standard then you wont have a problem. You have to remember that your working with muli million dollar films and have to work hard. The studios give you a job to and expect you to manage your time correctly they dont care if you surf the web inbetween renders or go grab a coffee or even go chill out and watch some TV as long as your work is done according to your schedule. I have to say i love the layed back envoronment I feel i work better when I dont have some slimy boss (not that my boss is slimy, Hi boss if your reading this) breathing over your shoulder 24/7.

I also do work very hard to get my shots done as early as possible and that way i can get new shots. Its not a case of wanting to be teachers pet its the fact that I work on contracts and want to impress. If i dont and my contract runs out i doubt they would have to ask many people to take my job.

cheers

[scwatman]

Hey Robert


Im interested to know what your level was before going to the course at Escape Studios? How much that really helped you improving your skills/reel etc? And if Escape made difference for MPC/DE or was it just about the reel for them, (before interview of course) period. ?

I spent three years going to university learning graphic design and web design. When i graduated I thought to myself i really dont want to be a web designer for ever more. Then I found escape.

If im honest I wouldnt be sitting here with out escape, I knew very little about compositing and even less about shake. I always watch the making off extras and things and knew loads about 2d and graphic design it was the whole motion and animattion side i knew nothing about.

In all honesty I dont think having escape studios on my resume really made that much difference to the studios, im sure it did no harm tho. Id say its more the quality of your showreel thats the key but without escape i couldnt of even made my showreel to start with. It didnt happen while I was there but ive heard of people getting picked right out the class to start work and people walking straight into jobs, I suppose its just your luck really.

cheers

[alive]

Q. Did they ask you what kind of pay you were looking for, since you were to relocate?

[scwatman]

Hey Naveen


which software did u started working with first(for rotoing).i m learning combustion myself,currently working as graphic designer.want to become a hard core compositor.i m good at photoshop.can u please tell me what short of photoshop skills helps for looking forward to be a compositor or a roto artist who works on highend programs like shake.i have idea like being good at making accurate selections using beizer tool(pen tool in photoshop),good at making different alpha channels ,understanding of tranparency or opacity helps in looking forward to be a compositor.....does it?plz tell me if i have any misunderstanding.

When I first started I mainly stuck to shake for everything. I learned to use a program called commotion but that has be stopped now and the studios are moving away from it. The are a couple of other packages out there for roto but I dont think the package matters a huge amount. If you can show you know how to roto and can do it to a very good standard on combustion then you dont need to know other packages. Roto is more an art than a science it looks easy but it really isnt but once youve got it in any top package then jumping to the one the studio wants you to use wont be a problem. Some studios have there own roto package which they would like you to learn anyway. It takes about half a day for me to pick up a new roto package.

I think a good grounding in photoshop can only help. If you can use the selction tool to make perfect mattes then the next step wold be to animated them (in combustion). Although your only working on still images in photoshop you're still compositing. Everythin you learn in photoshop will be used in shake or combustion its just knowing how each package does it. With combustion and after effects they have a layer based compositing system like photoshop and would be easier to understand for you. Shake works on a node based system with each node doing a different task, this can be confusing at first but once you got it you can do anything.

So id say keep using photoshop as its always comes in handy and then learn how to rotoscope really well. You can learn other packages if you want to put on your resume but its better to learn how to do it well than spend 6 months half learning 3 packages and then being crap at rotoing.

cheers

[scwatman]

Hey dinraj


Did they ask you what kind of pay you were looking for, since you were to relocate?

Not really. They have already have an idea what they pay roto people etc. The fact I relocate for the job didnt really come into it as I was moving to London anyway.

You have to remeber that when i first started I was in no position to argue over wages i wanted to get my foot in the door as i was fighting with about 100 other people for the job. Now is different as i have much more to offer and can negotiate my wages.

cheers

[naveen]

Many thanks Scwatman for ur guidance and u really made me feel good,u know why because though i m working as graphic designer my heart always remain in....how to get into compositing...when ill do roto,wire removal n all...smtimes i feel that i am waisting my time working on photoshop because i want to be compositor.u realised me that my thinking was wrong.well i m very comfortable with making alpha channels(mattes)using selection tool,even very intricate details in photoshop and as u said ill stick to combustion so that i can learn it to work with...well ive just started learning combustion...i hope ill be able doin rotoscoping in next two months.if i need ne help can i contact u thru ur id..if u dont mind?once again thanks for ur suggestion.

take care

[scwatman]

Hey naveen

Im glad to see Im helping out. I just wanted to make it easier for beginners than it was for me. Other than this site i found it really hard to find any information and felt other people didnt want to share their experiences.

Im sure this thread will be running for a while yet and im working on a blog for people. Feel free to PM me if you have any major problems. Id prefer it if you could keep posting any more question in this thread so that other people can read it aswell.

thanks

[alive]

Q. Are you doing any personal project of yours?? Got the time??

[scwatman]

Hey dinraj


Are you doing any personal project of yours?? Got the time??

Im not currently working on any VFX projects of my own but im a busy guy getting things sorted in London. Im designing my own web portfolio site and also a blog to help beginners, alhtough i dont give that as much time as i should. I dont have the interent in my flat yet so once i get that sorted ill do more. London recently gor a 24mb broaband provider so i think ill go for that 1, kicks the ass out of the 1mb i was using.

I also work on a few of my own ideas and like to play around with some script ideas for the distant future. So yeah i have plenty of time to do my own thing away from Dneg. We dont leave much later that 7pm around here (until dead lines i suppose) so I get weekends and nights to myself (well apart form the girlfriends nagging).

I hear some studios have you working all sorts of crazy hours but the ones I've been at have been great. Get the work done go home thats they way to look at it. Saying that i do like to spend a hour or two going over other peoples shakes scripts (I ask first) and practising junior comping tasks.

cheers

[Angel_Ice]

Hey my friend, which is your personal blog? LInk link link please! :-)

[doen]

Q: What platform do you work on (Linux, MacOS, Windows - well, Windows are probably out, since you're using shake)?
Q: How does your girlfriend feel about you working all the time (you work from, what, 10am to 7pm?)?


Darnit... I'm to tired to come up with any good questions, but would like to know so many things...

I'll go get some more sleep first and then I'll post more questions;)

Oh, another one:

Q: Do you ever get tired of what you're doing (I know you only just begun, but still)? Do you ever feel like there are other things you could do and are there times when you're totally fed up with all those splines and masks and mattes... And if so, what makes you "get back in there"? :D

[scwatman]

Hey Angel_Ice


which is your personal blog?

Its hasnt been put online yet. Its still in the developement stages. I thought i should use my web design degree at least one in my life time. If anyone has any idea what I should put on it then let me know.

Cheers

[Angel_Ice]

Hey Angel_Ice



Its hasnt been put online yet. Its still in the developement stages. I thought i should use my web design degree at least one in my life time. If anyone has any idea what I should put on it then let me know.

Cheers

Oh, it's simple.

U can tell about:"how to.."

Talk about the basics of the rotoscoping and compositing, thinks that persons like me that have no money for schools can learn in the way to know which are really the basics to start and make no errors in the workflow.
How to approach our first effect or job and so on.

It would me also cool to take some movies or video clips and deconstruct them.

:thumbsup:

[scwatman]

Hey doen


What platform do you work on (Linux, MacOS, Windows - well, Windows are probably out, since you're using shake)?

I started using a earlier copy of shake on windows and i still have it on my laptop. I dont want to put liunx on my laptop really. In work in use linux. Ive used Macs put im not a huge fan. At first all the animated menus are cool but i want my computer to just do what i want, i cant be bothered having windows flying around the screen when i close one. I like things to be quick. I hope the new windows doesnt go for all that animation crap.


How does your girlfriend feel about you working all the time (you work from, what, 10am to 7pm?)?

Its not a problem its the same as any other job really. She finishes around the same time and we go home or the gym or dinner or cinema (or when she wants to go to a musical i say i dont feel well) its great. Well we're are given a start time of between 9am and 10am, moving around london can be hard some mornings.


Do you ever get tired of what you're doing (I know you only just begun, but still)? Do you ever feel like there are other things you could do and are there times when you're totally fed up with all those splines and masks and mattes... And if so, what makes you "get back in there"?

In a word NO. I love what i do, there may come a day where i hate it but i think thats a long time off. If i didnt get paid to do it I would sit at home and do it anyway. This job can be hard work and sometimes very long hours but thats the price you pay to get your work on cinema screens around the world and your name in front of millions (like they watch the credits, but my family do). Oh and the money aint to bad either.

I simply cant see myself doing anything else. I might branch out into other areas from time to time or inbetween contracts but ill always do it.

cheers

[naveen]

Right scwatman,i think this thread will definately help beginners,...ill keep sending queries if any....looking forward to ur blog.

[monkeymagic]

What I want to know is where you get your passion, will and enthusiasm for what you do?
I need some of it.
Any runner jobs going a Dneg?

[Angel_Ice]

Hey MonkeyMagic, you need a lot of passion for this work...if u have not passion, change work...it's important to do somethink that u feel passion inside of you. :-)

[scwatman]

What I want to know is where you get your passion, will and enthusiasm for what you do?

Ive no idea, its just something ive always wanted to do and it just happens (I think) to be something im good at. Im not saying that at some stages while working on my showreel alone in my room at 4am I didnt wonder what the hell I was doing. But now im on my way I really enjoy it.

If your will is slipping id tell you to watch a film with loads of VFX in it. If i was getting a bit bored of my reel id go to the cinema. You'll sit there thinking "I want to do that" and i bet you go home and do some work or learn something.


Any runner jobs going a Dneg?

Again Ive no idea. I cant even ask our HR person is on hols for a couple of weeks. I do know a new runner just started but people are constantly gettin moved up and around so it mite be worth applying (both here and every where else)

cheers

[alive]

Yeah, scwatman. You are right. Being passionate at the work is all the thing. I was too, all my life. Uptil now. I am now too, but the drive has slightly degraded. My creative drive is low and I could'nt figure out why. Something is missing seriously in my life. A movie at the cinemas. That is what actually brought me into this field. That's what I was missing! Been over 7 months since I saw one at the cinema. Damn, these DVD's... . Cant blame 'em, i guess. I am to blame. I will sure go and watch a movie at the cinemas right this weekend. And I will never buy a DVD without watching at the cinemas first.

Thanks so much for all the help, scwatman. Been great!

Cheers!

[Angel_Ice]

Dinral, some other reason can be the stress..we are all in hurry, to much thinks to do, to think about...try to relax...I know how you feel...

[alive]

yeah. Actually I am stressed about the fact of what to do. I did a mistake of trying to learn too much. Not a mistake actually, it feels great to know lots of things. But at the end of the day i'm a bit of this and that. And now, when I have the all the time dedicated to comping, I can sit. My mind is wary. I think I lost my way a l'il bit in these 5 months. I think, that's how it is when you try to learn a lot of things. And it must be how much of everyone felt when they were 20.

[pingking]

Q: are your hired just for the show or is it a long term contract?

[scwatman]

Hey pingking


are your hired just for the show or is it a long term contract?

Yeah i was hired only for the current show Im working on (as always) Ive got around 2 months left on my current contract.

cheers

[hiphopcr]

This has been a ton of fun to read.. I think cuz it remind me of... me!

You have some awesome films under your belt aready, which project were you most excited about working on?

What has been your toughest shot so far?

[Cool_Guy001]

Hey Man

u help everyone new around here!!! <clap>

will u take some time out & chk my post & maybe suggest something as well

http://www.vfxtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4366

Thanks n keep up ur good work buddy
Guy

[doen]

Q: what does your shot list look like? what kind of instructions do you get and how precise and detailed are they?

[scwatman]

Hey hiphopcr


You have some awesome films under your belt aready, which project were you most excited about working on?

Well I was really excited to work on the new Harry Potter film. Although i cant say im a huge fan of the books (or any book for that matter) the films have always been good. The films are not really me kinda thingy but no where near as bad as I thought they would be when they first started. It could of been the fact that it was my first movie and its not a bad one to start you career on.

The film Im really glad I worked on was Wallace and Gromit, I always loved their shows on TV at christmas. Maybe Im just a big kid but I still love it now. Every time I opened my shake script or imported a new shot id laugh. Oh and the were-rabbit looks genius!

Oh and lets not miss out corpse bride. I have to say the animation on this show was a higher level than W&G and Im really looking forward to seeing how it all came together.



What has been your toughest shot so far?

I think the toughest shot Iv had was from Harry Potter 4 and It was the last shot I did, which makes it even more fun as my contract end dates draws ever closer.

The hardest shot I worked on was a large sky replacment shot with a really evil camera move. The original plate had a huge physical matte painting of a nights sky and a house (also wasnt in the entire shot). It just was missing something. I had to roto everythin from statues, flying crows, two wizards walking around, trees, bushes, church, house and grave stones. It took a huge amount of rotoing to get it finished.....well so i thought. They then came back to me and said they wanted to add CG smoke around the characters feet and moving inbetween the statues. Since I had only set up the rotos to remove the sky I had to do continue most down to meet the ground aswell. It was the most fun ive ever had in my entire life, well between that and the time santa only gave me an orange and a bit of cole for xmas.

cheers

[scwatman]

Hey doen


what does your shot list look like?

Well my schedule is bacically a time line with a bit list of shots on it. I then find the shot number im working on and search for it in the sequences database.

The shot list has a still from the shot in the top corner and then who is going to be working on it and what the frame range is. It is then broken up into different section like roto, match move, 3d and comping. Each section has a range of tick boxes to let me know what needs doing.


what kind of instructions do you get and how precise and detailed are they?

That may sound like all i need but I still find i have to go ask what the hell "roto colour" means or something equally as vague. The shot information is only really meant as a reference. I use it for frame ranges and the compers name really. I still find it works best if I find the person who needs the roto and find out exactly what they want.

cheers

[Cool_Guy001]

Thanks scwatman for replying to my post

http://www.vfxtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4366

Well, I think I didnt mention it. But, I would ultimately want to work for film (can anything be more exciting & satisfying?). TV, if at all, would be just a stepping stone. So now should I learn Shake? If yes can I install it on my home comp because I dont think the institute teaches Shake.

And yes, the institute does have few Flame machines (they make it there selling point ;-))

Can u tweak ur reply a bit now. It would be of more help.

You can reply here. I am gonna check this thread for a long time to come. I am sure I will learn many things from your solutions to other people's problems.

Thanks a Zillion.

[scwatman]

Hey Cool_Guy001

Hmmmm, lets see. If you want to work in film then i honsetly think learning shake (at some stage) is a must. I think you should contact the traingin place and find out how the course is broken up. Things id want to know are.

1. How is the course structured, is it about compositing with some software thrown in or is it just about the software and less about the hows, wheres and whys of compositing?

2. what will they teach you about each package, will after effect and combustion be roto or compositing packages, is flame just the comping package?

3. can you choose which software to use or is it 1 software at a time? (id go for combustion and flame myself)

4. Will you have a showreel at the end of it?

I dont want to make it sound like no studio uses flame or combustion for film work because they do and sometimes see you knowing them as a big plus. They sometimes say "experience with a high-end comping package like flame or shake". Shake is just the more commonly used package (it costs a hell of a lot less than flame) and the one they ask for.

Yeah you can get an earlier version of shake on a windows system like version 2.5 (before apple got it) or 2.51

sorry ive got to run if i didnt answer it right let me know. got a screening.

cheers

[Cool_Guy001]

Ok scwatman!

I m gonna throw those very questions the nex time I ring up them for an inquiry. I shall let u know wht they threw back at me ;-)

We shall carry my little consultation from there on.

In the mean time I m posting another small query (which is an extentsion to my basic compositing career query). Is Adobe Photoshop impostant. Plz chk it here....

http://www.vfxtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4376

I thank you for ur time.

A person who gives you his time is many times more valuable than the one who gives you money......A wise old man in our area.

[scwatman]

Hey Everyone

A while back I got asked if i knew any good trainging DVDs . The main question has been "which is better gnomon or CMI DVDs?" Ive always given the same answer.

No idea.

I just got my hands on a few DVDS from each company and will have a look and let everyone know what I think (if anyone gives a shit). I didnt buy them myself before you ask i managed to round them up from friends who had spent their hard earned cash.

The include CMI - shake , basics, intermidiate, advanced and the advanced keying dvd.
Gnomon - Interface & workflow, colour correction, tracking, expressions and onther one i cant remember.

Ill try and get some comments online as soon as I can.

cheers

[alive]

CMI: Most DVD's are straight forward and mostly into practicle uses of the soft. It's like "Buy one of these and get straight to business" type. So as soon as you finished a DVD you can try something cool. Being so practicle, it skips some functionalities of the soft being taught. Yeah, I am talking of the entire shake series!

Gnomon: I own some and have to tell, its way better than any of CMI's. Some dvds of CMI's are even mistitled, like the shake advanced keying and concepts, which is supposed to be intermediate keying. Half of the time, it is preping the BG for the composite. Also, each Gnomon is taught by experienced guys from their respective fields unlike CMI's which is mostly Chris. You gain that different perspective.

Dropped my 2 cents!

[stevenbray1]

Nice thread, wish I'd throught of it. Well done! :)

Massively important question; what's the coffee like at DNeg?

Less important question; what's their attitude to overtime and extra hours?

[scwatman]

Hey everyone

Well I wasted my time last night watching all those DVDs as im about to say the same thing as dinraj. :hammer:

Witht the CMI dvds i was really disapointed. Ive looked at them ages ago and wondered about buying them, glad I never. To me they just felt like the guy was doing it for the first time (he hadnt had a run through before recording). Dont even get me started on the word ADVANCED, to me that means that after watching an "advanced" DVD i would know advanced (i.e almost pro) stuff. Tracking is not an advanced skill. With many of the DVDs it was like they didnt have enough footage to fill one so just put on some other crap.
A prime example is the adavnced (theres that word again) keying DVD, its starts with a really good keying method for DV but then goes down hill to even particles at one stage. Also the method the guy uses to roto a simple window frame and copy it is just just strange.

Dont get me wrong if your a true beginner then you will learn a decent level of shake from these DVDs but the detail they have missed is a huge amount.

The Gnomon DVDs on the other hand were great, I really enjoyed watchin them. The guys really know what they are talking about and go into the perfect amount of detail. The main plus for gnomon is that each DVD works on the one task your expecting. Its doesnt tell you how to make the perfect spanish omelette on a tracking DVD or how to start your own cult on a colour correction DVD. It doesnt stop at the basic level on each DVD either. As an example the tracking DVD covers everything you'll need to know from 1 and 2 point tracking to obsucered point tracking. Simply great. It also goes through every node in the related tabs and tells you what each one does and how to use them(I admit a couple of them i didnt know, i do know tho ).

I hope this helps a bit but as i say since im not a true beginner maybe the smiple workings of the CMI DVDs are lost on me.

cheers

[scwatman]

Hey stevendray1

thanks, just wanted to help out a bit.



Massively important question; what's the coffee like at DNeg?

Ah the age old coffee question. Its instant stuff. At MPC we got really nice fresh coffee made for us but here I have to put the spoon full in my own cup!!!! Whats the world coming to!


Less important question; what's their attitude to overtime and extra hours?

I have never been made to feel like i have to stay late or heard anyone else either. I do the odd extra hour here and there but its just for me as im not happy with something or want to get something finished. As with most companies we dont get paid fof overtime as such, we get paid by the day no matter how many extra hours we do. We get the free dinner thing if we stay really late like most places.

If we do extra days like a sat or sunday then we get paid for it like any other day but there has to be a reason for working it we couldnt just come in as we want all their money.

My current show is getting closer to the end date so things might start to speed up round here soon and a few extra hours may be needed.

cheers

[hiphopcr]

So Scwatman,

what are your plans after Flyboys?

What projects would you love to jump onto in the future?

When and how do you see yourself moving into compositing?

[scwatman]

Hey hiphopcr



what are your plans after Flyboys?

Well ive got a couple of things im looking at but nothin is certain just yet. Its looking good tho. I dont want to say to much, dont want anyone hijacking my ideas.


What projects would you love to jump onto in the future?

Hmmm now thats a hard one. Id like to work on a narnia film or a really big budget fantasy style film. Id also like to work on a super hero film like spiderman or xmen (or one of the 1000 other comic book films). ohh and Halo but I think thats a while off yet and in NZ (so i hear).

I wouldnt mind gettin a chance to work on the da vinci code, a few studios in london are working on that. My brother says its a great book.

Ive done a couple big VFX films id like a go at a more invisible FX film.


When and how do you see yourself moving into compositing?

Well i am getting bits and bobs given to me here to do. junior comp level. so hopefully if i show i can cope with it ill get the chance sooner rather than later. Im realistic tho, a good few months of hard roto yet.

How about you hiphopcr (he is a junior artist aswell)

what are your plans?

What projects would you love to jump onto in the future?

When and how do you see yourself moving into compositing?

[hiphopcr]

Hey hiphopcr what are your plans?

Keep on working as long as I can, learn as much as I can, and not get fired! Experience is very important in this industry, it seems like everyone wants 2-3 years of experience, so I'm just gaining that experience :)


What projects would you love to jump onto in the future?

I love Spider-man! Aeon Flux was hardcore I hope the film is too. Halo, yes! Any of the comic book movies (Superman, X-Men).


When and how do you see yourself moving into compositing?

The company where I'm at is pretty good about moving people up. I'm getting eased into ever increasingly difficult wire and rig removals, which is definitely a form of compositing. I'm reaching my year mark in the industry next month and I'm amazed at what I've learned.

Gotta love our job ;)

[Varun]

olright..i know this'll sound really weird..but..i need a concept for rotoscopy / Masking or both. If you have any idea about anything ..like shooting..or if u have seen a movie in which a lil change ( where roto or mask ) is involved please please please lemme know..

thanks..
later..


ANYBODY!:|

[alive]

Aint a pro but I do follow some rules while roto'ing.They're not my rules, they are what I found others to be using.

1. Analyse your footage to the T by watching it again and again. Plan your way through.

2. Divide the work into halves depending on the level of effort required.

3. Use the least amt of points possible.

4. Keep a reference for atleast one of these points with respect to the Bg. For eg. if roto'ing a car, keep point no.12 always at a particular place, say, always near the bumper corner.

5. Inbetween animating the masks, divide and animate. For eg. animate the mask from frame 1 to end frame. Then adjust the mask in the middle and so on...

5. Provide some clearance between the roto mask and the subject. You could always readjust them.

These are for manual roto. For tracking data aided roto, use the data to transform the masks ie. use the tracks to move the masks. It saves you the work of keyframing the mask. Else everything's the same work. Afraid, dont have much more abt this.

maybe scwatman would be able to give a better descr. Scwatman????

[hiphopcr]

I agree with most of the points, they are excellent. Watching the footage over and over is probably the single best time saver you can do. Plan out what you need to mask. Also tip #4, keep your points roughly in the same spot.

Don't animate the mask from frame 1 to the end frame, then the frame right in the middle. Set keyframes on the "extreme" positions, like when an arm has reached the top of it's swing and begins to come down. Think like an animator.

And yes, track whenever you can!

I have another question, Scwatman, do you sit with other roto guys or with the compositors?

[alive]

Don't animate the mask from frame 1 to the end frame, then the frame right in the middle. Set keyframes on the "extreme" positionsi


That's what I meant. Yeah, my english aint that good:)

[scwatman]

Hey guys

I think dnraj has given a good idea of how to do roto but i thought id just quickly give my version. (really just copying a bit of dnraj's and hiphopcr's ideas)

1. Analyse your footage to the T by watching it again and again. Plan your way through.

2. Divide each object into smaller seperate rotos and then join them together. It makes correction further down the line easier. e.g a person running could be 2 leg rotos, 2 arm rotos, torso and head.

3. use as few points as possible but still enough to keep all the detail you need.

4. Try and keep as many points on the same positions as possible, this avoids points rolling or appearing to slip. e.g. knee joint. ankle amd foot.

5. Dont think you have to start on the first frame. Pick the frame with the best starting position and work backwards and forwards. e.g A runner fully streched.

6. Put points on the extreme movement. e.g. a fully stretch arm and then bent. put frames between if needed.

7. Tracking roto is always a good start even if the isnt a huge amount of movement from the object. It can be used to pick up camera shake or vibration that is really hard and time consuming to animated.

8. If you need to remove and object with removing others that pass over it, it is easier to simple track the new object over it to hide it and then to roto everything else back over the top. Trying to roto in " negative" can be a real pain in the arse.

9. With wire or marker removal try to simply place other parts of the shot over them. Dont try to make clean plates unless u really need to. moving a bit over a few pixels to cover a wire helps keep the grain, camera move etc.

10. get someone else to do it.

cheers

[stevenbray1]

I agree with the last point. :)

Unfortunatley I'm that "someone else" a lot of the time. :(

[scwatman]

Hey hiphopcr


I have another question, Scwatman, do you sit with other roto guys or with the compositors?

At Dneg the rooms get split up into the show ur working on not by what job you do. Im in a room with other 2d people and also some 3d guys (but this room is mainly 2d apart from 1 lonely matchmover) its a good way to work i can ask the comps exactly what they need or i can ask for any advice from them.

oh and just incase anyone wants to know ive been moved to comping recently. Only until the current show is finished but still its a very welcome change.

cheers

[vfx]

Wow its been a while since I've been on these forums...anyways caught this post through your link in CGTALK...

Well Steven, firstly congrats on the work you're doing - Flyboys sounds great - looking forward to seeing this!

Ok, Nice and simple...

1. As a junior-ish artist, what kind of salary can I expect to make? As of today I applied for the current openings for matchmovers...and like yourself, I would be having to move to London, and I have to weigh out the costs!! (It's strange actually, theres a lot of similarities between us because I too want to eventually end up in LA - CA, and I have my girl following along waiting for me to make my moves he he. So best of luck to you there too!) Anyway, back to the question - I ask this because currently as a freelance 3D Artist and in my current contract I'm earning 24k annually and thats not living in London! So what can one expect?

2. How did you manage to find accomodation (especially with a girl in tag), and hows the trains these days - that freaks me out a lot! :(

3. Finally, what type of role does a matchmover have at DNeg? Are entry level artists supervised? Are entry level artists given a period in which to get up to speed? Does DNeg have its own tracking software (I'm guessing no)?

Basically my questions here are aimed at finding out how you made the transition from your hometown to London - and how ur finding it being an alien as such. Also - and lastly - are you finding that your opportunities for succeedig in securing work abroad are increasing due to contacts e.t.c?

Well thats all a bit messy - but I hope you can make some sense of it!

P.S. If you see Dayne - put in a good word for me! He he :thumbsup:

Cheers
Dom

[scwatman]

Hey Dom


1. As a junior-ish artist, what kind of salary can I expect to make? I ask this because currently as a freelance 3D Artist and in my current contract I'm earning 24k annually and thats not living in London! So what can one expect?

Well it really does depend on the experience you have each position is done on an idividual basis. If you have experience and are good at what u do then i think u'll be looking at more than 24k but it all depends on who u work for, how good u are and what contract u get. I dont think ud have a problem living in london tho. Everyone here is from somewhere else, i dont really know many true londoners now i think about it. a few but most have come here from all over the UK or abroad.


2. How did you manage to find accomodation (especially with a girl in tag), and hows the trains these days - that freaks me out a lot!

There are a number of different sites for flats etc gumtree.com and the like. Well I moved down a few months before my girlefriend so the hard part was done long before she got there.

Oh the trains are fine now, in fact i think they r completely back to normal now. they were quiet for a long time after that. Altho i was on them the day after the bombings, didnt have a choice had to get to work. apart from a horrible smoke smell and a people watching each other like hawks it was fine.


3. Finally, what type of role does a matchmover have at DNeg? Are entry level artists supervised? Are entry level artists given a period in which to get up to speed? Does DNeg have its own tracking software (I'm guessing no)?

A matchmover well, match moves. Yeah, well everyone is supervised to some level but it tends to be more, there to help than telling you what to do. Im mainly left to do my thing and if i need help I ask them, I dont have someone looking over my shoulder all the time. They just come round every now and then (morning mostly) to see if im ok. My friend recently started here as a a matchmover and they gave him enough time to settle before they hit him with everything.

I dont think they have a tracking app. They mainly use 3dequilizer, boujou and now pftrack. If i need to do a hard 2d track i jump to boujou.


Also - and lastly - are you finding that your opportunities for succeedig in securing work abroad are increasing due to contacts e.t.c?

In all honesty i havent really thought much about that. I dont think it hurts to know people who have worked on the matrix, lord of the rings film etc mayeb as references. Im still a couple of years away from that i think but ill keep it in the back of my mind and try not to make any enemies.

[vfx]

Lol
A matchmover well, match moves

Yeah fair enough silly me didn't explain that too well.... I mean't in terms of the days work load? What needs to be done in a day e.t.c. a daily workday diary as such.

Thanks for the info, I was asking about supervision to find out just how much you get to learn as opposed to actually being watched. lol.

Great to hear your friends landed a role...if you can, I'd love to contact him and find out a little more - can u pass on his email address if thats ok? You can email it to me at dominicalderson@cgfolio.co.uk

Thanks for your time.
All the best
Dom

[hiphopcr]

oh and just incase anyone wants to know ive been moved to comping recently. Only until the current show is finished but still its a very welcome change.

Hey congrats, this is an awesome step in your career! Good luck and I'm excited to hear about your comping experiences.

[alive]

Hey congrats, this is an awesome step in your career! Good luck and I'm excited to hear about your comping experiences.

+1 :wow:

[Alex[RM-UK]]

Q: I want to get into 3D Modeling/VFX for films as a carrea - Would you say a 12 week course for the Maya | comprehensive at Escape is too short and is rushed, therefore you don't learn much. Or would a 2-3 year University course be better as it would go more into detail?

[scwatman]

I want to get into 3D Modeling/VFX for films as a carrea - Would you say a 12 week course for the Maya | comprehensive at Escape is too short and is rushed, therefore you don't learn much. Or would a 2-3 year University course be better as it would go more into detail?

I know loads of people who have done the escape 3d course and work in the industry so if you ask me if its worth while id have to say YEAH. I think the problem with Escape is that everyone thinks that after 12 weeks they will be walking straight into a job. Escape will teach you everything u need to know and teach you how to use the software but 12 weeks isn't long enough to become a pro. U'll need to finish the course and spend another few months working on ur skills and practising. At uni u practise as u learn and have a long time to work on ur skills and when u come out the door u have more chance of being up to the task.

U really need to ask urself what u want to do, spend 2-3 years learning 3d at uni and being able to walk into a job (if ur really lucky) or spend 12 weeks learning 3d and then another 4-6 months practising and developing a showreel.

I did the 4 week 2d course (before it changed) and it taught me everythin i needed to know to work shake then around 6 months later once i had my showreel and the experience to back it up I finally go myself a job at MPC.

Either way its expensive and lots of hard work but u dont have to write reports on the history of 3d or the future of animation at escape. A major plus in my book!

[Alex[RM-UK]]

Thanks for your anwser, I have another one following on.

While you were making showreal after you left Escape - where do you get money from to live/basic stuff etc - part time job aswel? loans? I really want to go to Escape but the only concern is Money.

[scwatman]

While you were making showreal after you left Escape - where do you get money from to live/basic stuff etc - part time job aswel? loans?

Well before escape i had a full time job and saved up a fair bit of money to live on while i was down in london. Once the course was over i moved back home (Glasgow) to work on my showreel , its a hell of a lot cheaper and i didnt take my computer down with me anyway. I worked at my dads garage for a while to earn enough to live on and did my showreel stuff in between that and seeing my girlfriend and mates. In all honesty if i had just gotten my head down and worked on it I could of done it much sooner but unlike uni u can do it in ur own time with out deadlines. I alway try to live within my own means, im not really a fan of owing money unless i really need to so a loan to eat, sleep, work on my reel and go for a pint wasnt really something id want to do.

[Alex[RM-UK]]

Thanks that helped a lot :) - I never thought of going back home to work on reel . I'd proberly take my PC with me so I can pratice things I've learned that day, plus I can't live without it hehe.

How old were you when you went to Escape? If I am gonig to go there, i'd prob go when im 18, 2 years at college after school - save money up then go.

[scwatman]

How old were you when you went to Escape?

I was just 21 when i went.

Well if ur going to go to college for 2 years anyway then maybe a VFX or 3d course at uni is the way to go. a few new match movers started here recently and a few of them had just finished at uni. I think it was bournemouth uni (dont hold me to that).

[Alex[RM-UK]]

Why if I go to college would it be best for me to go to Uni?

So, you think best way to go is:

College - Uni - Escape

not

College- Escape

The course i'll be doing at College is Media and Multimedia - thats the only thing in any of my local collages that is 3D related.

[scwatman]

Sorry thats not what i meant.

I was thought u meant just uni or escape. If ur thinking of going to college for 2 years then escape why not just go straight to uni and miss out college and escape.

if u know what i mean.

[scwatman]

but i just want to say its totally up to u. im just giving u some different options.
The more u can learn about 3d etc will just give u more chance of getting a job at the end of it all.

ur young u've got plenty of time to decide and if u dont like uni and havent spent to much escape is always there for u to fall back on.

[Alex[RM-UK]]

I don't think you can go straight to Uni? You have to go to college then uni don't you? I'm going to have a look at some Uni courses now, see whats out there. Thanks very much for your help :)

[alive]

scwatman, Is a basic degree that important in finding a job? I mean, having on of those degrees which in no way relate to the job you are applying for. DO you have guys round who took the plunge straight after high school???

[scwatman]

I don't think you can go straight to Uni?

Ehhhhhh. We can in Scotland are u in England or what? Our education system is different

[scwatman]

scwatman, Is a basic degree that important in finding a job?

Well we were talking ealier in the thread about escape vs a uni dergree. I think a degree always looks nice on paper but i dont think it really gives u any advantage over a escapee or a self taught person. In this industry its about what u can do more than where u went to school.

I did a degree before i went to escape and i feel it was a bit of a waste of time. Granted i learnt photoshop to a really high level and it made me seriously think about 2d as a career but i could have gotten where i am without it.


DO you have guys round who took the plunge straight after high school???

Im not really sure but i can tell u there are people with noe formal VFX/3d education everywhere in this industry. Loads of people are self taught and are just as good as people with degrees.

[Alex[RM-UK]]

Yeh i'm in England. I thought the whole UK was like that, i'll go Googling.

[scwatman]

Nope, in scotland we finish high school and can go straight on to uni or college. depending if u got good enough grades that is.

[Alex[RM-UK]]

Just looked at a few Uni's and some minimum ages are 16, and thats when you leave School. I'm proberly going to go to college, then it's a choice between Escape or Uni :)

[naabero]

One guy who is friend of my friend told me that if you want to be compositor (what I want to be) you have to know also about 3d things? He just say nothing superskills in 3d, but however advanced. My question is, why the hell?

And that guy is working on big role in Pixar, so I guess he know something? : o


Sorry my bad english, thank you for your time and let me know what you think! And by the way, nice story! Good luck with future!

[scwatman]

Hey naabero

Well if u want to be a compositor at pixar then i suppose knowing something about 3d is a must as it is all u will be dealing with.

I dont think u need to know anything major about 3d to be a compositor. I myself know only about the relevant 3d stuff. Like how the passes fit together, how i can match them into a shot and how to spot any lighting, matchmove and animation problems other than that 3d is alien to me. I couldnt sit down at maya and make any of the 3d stuff and i dont plan on learning how to any time soon. 3d people get paid to do it and i dont think they'd be happy with a me telling them how to do their job.

Of course knowing as much as possible about all the elements that go into a shot is important but the specifics of each package etc isnt. You could look into 3D, match moving, particles etc on a theory level but u dont need to be an expert in any off them to be a compositor.

As you work in the industry you'll learn loads anyway, stick to what u need to know and the rest u can pick up along the way. Thats half the fun.

cheers

[stevenbray1]

Well the trend is for 3D Cameras in comping packages, Shake being the latest to (finally) add one.

And if the likes of Jim Cameron and George Lucas get their way the future of mainstream cinema is 3D.

Being able to jump into Maya is very useful, from what I've seen. Especially for creating clean plates or adding in Matte Paintings. I'm learning Maya at the moment but it's not an easy program. Powerful yes, but not easy.

Or maybe I'm just thick? :confused:

[modernprimitive]

Hi scwatman,

I have a few questions:

1) Bezier or RotoBezier?

2) On average what percentage of your work are keyframes and what percentage are correctly interpolated by your roto tools algorithm? Are there any tips 'n tricks on reducing the number of keyframes?

3) Do you often find you need to go back and insert new nodes in your masks and rework them, or do you switch between multiple masks when your original no longer suits the changes happening in the shape of the matte.

Thanks for sharing with us.

Cheers,
modernP

[hiphopcr]

I'm not Scwatman, but I just finished up a bunch of roto today so here's my opinions.

1) Bezier... I hate RotoBezier!

2) Nearly all my frames are keyframes, generally my objects that I'm roto'ing are flailing around so much they need frame-by-frame work. Unless it's an inanimate object, then I'll find a way to track it.

3) Usually I can determine beforehand how many splines I'll need but sometimes I'll need to toss in an extra one that I'll name "extra."

[naveen]

hi scwatman..m learning combustion myself..want to start my career as roto/paint artist...tutorials that comes with combustion package doesnt have any roto specific tutorial..also on net i see lots of compositing tutorials but never found any roto tutorial for someone who is doing first time , how i should go about, considering me at entry level havnt done any roto stuffs...but as ive told in this thread early,am quite comfortable with photoshop..love to paint in that.

[scwatman]

Hey modernprimitive


1) Bezier... I hate RotoBezier!

Just like hiphocr I just stick to dezier. As with most things in compositing there are many ways to do the same thing and its just up to decide which method u prefer.


2) On average what percentage of your work are keyframes and what percentage are correctly interpolated by your roto tools algorithm? Are there any tips 'n tricks on reducing the number of keyframes?

By "correctly interpolated by your roto tools algorithm" i take it u mean but a key frame on frame 10 and 25 and let the software work out the animation in between and by "key framing" u mean a key frame on every frame?

I generally try to let the software work out as much as possible as it creates a smoother animation. The main tip i can give u is to study ur footage carefully before u start. Plan the best points for the key frames. leg bent fully - leg stratched fully. Also track every shot u can!!!! Even if the shot doesnt have loads of movement. A quick track to pick up camera shake or actor wobbling can save u loads of time and key frames.

Recently i work on rotoing a lot of flowing fabric and even fire and water splashes. At first they look a nightmare but once u get the roto set up its really is quiet straight forward, Granted they always take longer as u need a key frame on ever frame but as each frame is so different u dont have to worry about smooth animation which is the real art of roto.


3) Do you often find you need to go back and insert new nodes in your masks and rework them, or do you switch between multiple masks when your original no longer suits the changes happening in the shape of the matte.

LIke hiphopcr i can work out what i need by looking at the footage. Thats not to say that i get it right every time. Sometimes things apppear for a few frame or change shape a lot, in these cases i normally add a new roto shape for a few frames.

By braking everything down into smaller shapes (legs, arms , head etc) i fined i can work around most things. If a gab appear somewhere along the line i simplt plug the gap with a new shape.

cheers

[scwatman]

Hey naveen

I know it is hard to find good tutrorials for roto on the web (or anywhere else really). Doesnt combustion have roto tutorials u can look at?

There is a roto software around called curious gfx and they have a rotoscoping tutorial pack. I know its not for the software ur using but it has footage u can play with and it gives the ideas behind what ur doing.

u can find it here:

http://www.curious-software.com/downloads/gFx/index.html

U might want to have a look at this roto package aswell, there is a trial download for it on the same package. Ill keep on looki

[scwatman]

Hey naveen

Not sure if uve had a look at the autodesk web site but they have some tutorials that might help u out.

Combustion 3 : http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=5573794
Combustion 4: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=5575218

cheers

[naveen]

thanx scwatman....ill download that tutorial from curious gfx..though m using combustion i think process remains the same on evry application ..that might help me out...n plz let me know if u find something abt roto for combustion user.

[naveen]

ya ive been to those autodesk links...again there is no roto specific tutorial..ya that can help me for doing other stuffs.... thanx scwatman for ur cooperation.

[chaoz]

hi ppl,

im a compositor too just trying to land a gig in LA.

concerning PIXAR, you wont have any luck there as a compositor.i asked them on siggraph and basically they really render as much as possible in the rib (renderman files) so they don even have a comp department! their lighting TD to some comping but thats it!

hiphopcr: your ar DD right? i have a n interview there on thursdaywith leandro ;-) maybe you see me soon there :-)

[modernprimitive]

Hi Hiphopcr,


2) Nearly all my frames are keyframes, generally my objects that I'm roto'ing are flailing around so much they need frame-by-frame work. Unless it's an inanimate object, then I'll find a way to track it.

....-how do you mean track it?
Would you track different points on an object (typically where your roto nodes would be) and then drive the roto's nodes using the positioning of the tracking point's?
(Assuming that the object changes over time - obviously if it doesn't one can just drive the roto's centre point by the tracking point.)

[Splash]

In Combustion you only need select the points of mask (or the full mask) and click in the tracker window. After effects doesn´t have this feature directly (for points of mask don´t possible), but perhaps using the precomp I believe to be possible. This technique is more used for objects don´t change the shape(cars, planes, building)

[mikael_p]

HI!

I wonder how it is to be a runner at one of the big moviecompanies in London.
I am currently studing digital graphics in Sweden and we have a intership period coming up soon, and I thought it would be fun to take the opportunity to get a runner position in london! But I have some doubts, do runners do some real work ever, or do they supply everybody with coffe all day long? Do they get paid? What do you think, is it a good starting poit to get in to a real jobb?

[DavidW]

I don't think that's a perfect plan. I can be fun, but if you want to get into the industry - try to get an internship in Stockholm first. Then work a lot and become good. Then you can go to London and actually get to do some fun work instead of just running around delivering tapes or coffee...

[scwatman]

Hey I was starting to think this thread was dead.



I wonder how it is to be a runner at one of the big moviecompanies in London.
I am currently studing digital graphics in Sweden and we have a intership period coming up soon, and I thought it would be fun to take the opportunity to get a runner position in london! But I have some doubts, do runners do some real work ever, or do they supply everybody with coffe all day long? Do they get paid? What do you think, is it a good starting poit to get in to a real jobb?

Well some runners work in there own time learning software etc but only the very lucky get to do any real work towards an actual project (if any one has then let us know). In some companies runners are really waiters, bringing coffee, tea and food to people but in others they do more general studio tasks like delivering and collecting things and helping out around the studio. Oh and yes they get paid.

I know of many artists that started life as a runner both people who knew how to use the software and those who knew nothing when the started. It can take a long time to move up to whatever u want to do but i does happen and is a good way to get your foot in the door at a good company.

Id say try everythin u can to get an artists job before you take a runners job. If u cant get a artist job for love nor money then a runners job is the next best thing. Just dont expect to be a runner for a month or two then move up it can take a while (ive been told around 6 months to a year is the norm)

[alive]

scwatman, mate, just wondering whether it is a good idea to prep. a self answering FAQ page alongwith my CV. The FAQ containing questions (and anwsers) frequently asked pertaining the post I am applying for.

and how's work on da vinci code on?(if ya on it)

[scwatman]

Hey dinraj

Hmmmm I not sure about this one. what kind of questions did u have in mind, questions about you? All the things they want to know should be either in your CV or cover letter somewhere so i dont really see the need for a Faq page. Thats what an interview is for, to let them ask u everythin they want to know anyway. If u really want to or already have then i dont think it would do any harm either way.

Im working on a different project, a new horror. its doing well working on temps and pre-viz comps at the moment.

[jkast82]

Hey Scott

Tried to send you a meesage, but I dont think you recieved it - just thought I would say hi, as I am starting at DNeg in January - (assuming you are still there).

Would be cool to get to know you, or anyone else who is there and active on this forum.

Cheers

Johnny :toiletbot

[zag]

Scwatman, can you talk a bit more of your experience at Escape Studios.

- Did escape gave you material for , like books?
- What kind of exercises you did in the course?
- Did you had the oportunity do work in group?
- The teachers helped you when you needed? ...just asking this because i had a friend in the maya course, and he said that the teachers didnt loose too much time with "personal doubts".
- Did you had the chance to visit any companies?
- Did you use the lab after the course hours or did you worked at home, if you worked at home what was your computer specs?

Thanks!

[scwatman]

Hey Johnny,

yeah im still at dneg, in fact in rendering stuff right now so it gives me a chance to check this forum.

so when u do start then?

[scwatman]

Hey zag

BEfore i answer this stuff i just want to say it was a long time ago i went to escape so things may have changed a fair bit. u should put a post on their forum.


- Did escape gave you material for , like books?
They dont give u any books but they tell u which ones to get etc. They do give out print outs and stuff but i think that really depends on the teacher u get.


What kind of exercises you did in the course?
just basic comping and roto stuff, they had some plates from movies we played around with. My teacher had some of his own exercises for us.


- Did you had the oportunity do work in group?
Nope, it was all solo stuff. we were at a very low level so working in a group would of been a bit pointless. As the course is a bit longer now you may have group stuff. not sure.


- The teachers helped you when you needed? ...just asking this because i had a friend in the maya course, and he said that the teachers didnt loose too much time with "personal doubts".
Well the teacher i had was great always willing to help out. again it depends on your luck. the teacher i had doesnt teach there anymore i dont thnik. shame.


Did you had the chance to visit any companies?
Yeah i went for a tour of MPC. i think they change the companies round. i have 2 say ive never seen a group of escapees getting shown round where ive worked tho.


Did you use the lab after the course hours or did you worked at home, if you worked at home what was your computer specs?
I moved down from scotland for the course and didnt take my computer with me. I stayed late every night until they kick me out. It always struck me as strange but some people would jump up and leave as soon as class was over. id spent 1000s i wanted my moneys worth. i did use my home PC to make my showreel though and it worked fine. ive got a new laptop now but it was a 512mb RAM amd 2200+. worked fine on the video res stuff i had but 2k or HD stuff would of been a different matter.

cheers

[jkast82]

Scott-

Hey, i start tomorrow (thursday 5th). Im sure ill find a way to contact you through the company email. Look forward to meeting up sometime im going for a quick drink on Friday eve with some uni pals working in the area, if u wanna join us you would be most welcome!

Zag-

I cant speak about Escape as I didnt go there, although im told that it is a fantastic place to get up to speed with a specific software. The people that come from there seem to do well and ive seen impressive work!
Just thought I would suggest also having a look at Bournemouth University (UK), there are a bunch of great courses there.
That is my particular background, although there are obvious pros and cons for choosing the uni/short course route, as i think has been mentioned earlier.

Benefits to mention for those interested are:
- Blue/Green screen studio with fully rigged lighting.
-High quality cameras to shoot your own material- 35mm, 16mm, and DVCPro- you shoot and edit all of your own material and there is plenty of extra stuff to use for practise
-you can work as a vfx supervisor on student films made at the filmschool nextdoor, and submit the work as extra material to be considered for marking (as well as reel of course)
-The computer studios are open 24hrs
-The courses range from 1 year (Masters) to 3 years (Bachelors) which means you can really spend a long time working with a specific piece of software in your projects, as well as learning a lot of other software from classes(maya, houdini, renderman, endorphin, shake, photoshop available at all times for anyone) however concentration is heavy on learning the fundamentals of graphics, rather than the software (as software is always changing).
-Teachers are ex-industry/ex-students/experts in their field and available anytime during the day.
-Industry speakers visit every week and visits to companies are often arranged.
-Also there is the social side of uni, and plenty of group work if you want to do that.
-alumni webpages and forums keeping all old students and industry workers in contact socially
-you can specialise/generalise, up to you

It isnt for everyone, most people loved the experience, but there were many who along the line felt it wasnt for them.
You have to put a lot of work in yourself, the teachers wont hold your hand for you, and to achieve you will have to take scott's work ethic and stay late and work in your own time.
Either route - escape/uni - isnt going to make you an expert overnight - this is an industry where you are constantly learning, its only when u start working that most of the experience is really gathered.

If anyone has any questions - as scott has kindly set up this thread to answer those junior confusions, id also be happy to answer anything from my experience.

J :rotfl:

[Pnagle]

i only have one question...do you get to listen to your tunes while you roto?

i would go insane if i could not listen to music while i slaved away tracing people with splines...

Pat

[Robert]

as long as its an ipod not a boombox ;)

[Pnagle]

one more q...

do you find that rotoscoping film is easier than rotoscoping dv fooatage?


Like if you had 1 shot that was shot on DV and the same shot was also on film which would you rather roto? I would do the film one...mainly because you can actually see he detail most of the time..

whats your thoughts?
Pat

[doen]

I bet anyone would answer film... Even at a proxy scale... cause the problem with DV is the damn fields... Rotoing interlaced footage sux :)

[Pnagle]

the biggest problem i have with dv is 4:1:1 compression....the quality of the footage is so terrible...

dont you de-interlace your footage and blend the fields?

i would never roto interlaced footage...are you crazy

pat

[doen]

pat, the best de-interlaced footage is far suckier than the worst footage in progressive mode. ;)

[zag]

Thanks for taking the time to answer the questions Scott. I have one more for you.

You said that you rented a camera for your shots, in your demo. Does escape have material (cameras) for the students film their shots or they supplied all the footage? Btw how much did it cost to rent the camera, just curious.

Thanks!

[Lompoc42]

Scwatman...

First off, thank you. This thread has been a serious insight into the world which I seek to enter. I actually teach Audio/Video production at a design school here in Wellington, NZ. You know what they say, those who can't, teach. So I'll get down to my question now. Actually it's two questions:

We have an upcoming course in Video Post Production which will have a fair amount of comping and to prepare for it I've been teaching myself Shake for about 6 months solid. Still not getting very far as there is lack of things to practice on. What would you suggest as far as good, real practice that I could do on my own?

Secondly, the only major film company here to work with is Weta. Everything else is pretty much TV. However - and I wish to stress to ANYONE who has worked at WETA that this is strictly here-say - WETA apparently has received the nickname "Weta Sweatshop". I've met and talked with several people who worked on Kong and all of them say the same thing: "I'd have to think twice before working on another Peter Jackson film". Apparently none of them saw their homes for the last three months of the film. They also told me that it was absolute common place to work in excess of 120 hours for the week. My actual question is this: Would you consider working for a company with a reputation for such hellish hours and demanding work schedule? The only reason I don't go and seek a roto job there myself is because of that reputation, and with a new baby boy on the way, I would never be able to work those kinds of hours and be a good dad. So my plan being now that I will work at the school through at least one full cycle of the new course and then get out in the real world. If nothing else it'll give me a beautiful chance to learn and get paid at the same time without getting fired for not knowing what the hell I'm doing! :)

p.s. I completely agree about the CMI DVDs. I hear the new ones are better, but the first 4 are basically a waste. I knew nothing about Shake when I first opened them up, but I learned very little. The Apple Pro training books are SUPERB! however and really give you plenty of insight to how things work. The next step is getting the GNOMON DVD set as I hear good things about them. Thanks again, Scwatman, and good luck with your work.

[scwatman]

Hey zag

I dont think escape have cameras for the students to use (maybe the do now) the didnt when i was there all the footage was provided by them.

it was a cannon xl1 i rented and it was only about £40 a day, i had it for a weekend (sunday was free). in glasgow we have a government run place that rents them out to young film makers. very nice indeed.

[scwatman]

Hey Lompoc42


What would you suggest as far as good, real practice that I could do on my own?

unlike 3d where u can make what ever u want comping is different. if u dont have the footage ur screwed. without shooting your own footage it can be hard getting your hands on decent quality stuff. People record some shots off DVDs and use them. straight roto practise or maybe change the background or whatever. im thinking you have access to video equiptment of some kind. it doesnt have to be 3ccd or HD stuff (it helps). You could shoot some plates and do you own simple stuff, roto a person walking down the street or a car whatever.


Would you consider working for a company with a reputation for such hellish hours and demanding work schedule?

would i consider working at Weta? oh let me think! Yes id jump at the chance. no matter how many people u speak to there will always be someone who hates a studio. I worked at MPC and was always told its a sweat shop as well. I never had a problem with the place or the people.

check out www.surveyhell.com people always have to much to say about studios.

In all honesty what other choices to you have if weta is the only one? have u thought about going abroad? i know for a fact that as soon as you have the words Weta Digtal on your CV your already miles ahead of the other applicants.

but as your just starting out id say yeah go for the gnomon DVDs and learn while you work (u lucky git). dont rule out working in TV though it can still be a great place to learn and gives you stuff for reels etc. moving to film isnt that big a jump once you know what your doing.

[Yossarian!]

They also told me that it was absolute common place to work in excess of 120 hours for the week. My actual question is this: Would you consider working for a company with a reputation for such hellish hours and demanding work schedule?

Crazy. (if its true) I'm going to throw my hat in and say that no job is worth the sacrifice of those hours, no matter where it is or what the project is. We're not curing cancer here folks.

[Lompoc42]

Crazy. (if its true) I'm going to throw my hat in and say that no job is worth the sacrifice of those hours, no matter where it is or what the project is. We're not curing cancer here folks.

Granted, but we are doing something worth while. The truth of the whole thing is that we LOVE what do and don't want to do anything else - indeed we'll be unhappy if we're not connected in someway to film.

After considering what Scwatman said and what a friend of mine said as well, I think I could potentially justify it. It's almost like doing time, I'd imagine, except you get to work on a big budget movie, get paid well, and get your name in the credits of a feature film and an entry on IMDB. Scwatman is right, Weta is a weighty CV reference. As long as the ends justify the means, and all that. For me I think they would...

So now it's off to try and get on the roto team for Halo! What a way to add 30 minutes to my daily commute.

[Yossarian!]

Hey, we all dance to our own tune and do what we need to do to make ourselves feel happy, important, fulfilled or whatever. Personally I've just heard too many stories of relationships destroyed by the demands of post-production. And my relationship with my partner is and hopefully will always be FAR more important to me than a career in vfx, so I don't intend to work the hours I'm working indefinately. I would be curious to know what experiences others have had at balancing work/life pressures and dealing with ungodly hours.

[Lompoc42]

And my relationship with my partner is and hopefully will always be FAR more important to me than a career in vfx, so I don't intend to work the hours I'm working indefinately. I would be curious to know what experiences others have had at balancing work/life pressures and dealing with ungodly hours.

I know exactly what you mean and how you feel. Like I said, I'm about to have a baby boy next month and I wouldn't take into anything that would detract from my experience with him. That said, the VFX side of thing is normally on a contract basis, and I know that Weta has a skeleton crew working with them when they're not in production. My point is that I think I could justify a 6-8 month contract working mad hours if it meant my career was going to be more solidified in the end. I would hope that it would enable me to get into something more sane indefinitely and allow me to better provide for the family.

Like you said, though, different strokes. If I get on Halo, I'll let you know how it turns out. :)

[modernprimitive]

Lomproc 42 - Your wife will be needing you. Trust me - unless she doesn't work. At one stage when my youngest son was about a year old, I worked so hard that I never saw my kids at all - I'd leave for work before they woke up and I'd get home after they were asleep. It's just not worth it. If you're going to do it, make a vow that it will only be for a certain period.
You must also rememeber that having a baby seriously affects your working life - especially now that the modern man has become part of breast-feeding routines at 1am, diaper changing at 3am, rocking baby to sleep at 5am etc etc. You'll be teased about your bloodshot eyes and your thoughts will often be elsewhere - especially when baby gets ill or a fever - you'll rush from work to take him/her to the pediatrician - This may damage your reputation in a working environment as being unreliable, unfocused etc etc.

Having said that, it would be a great career move. Make sure that your wife has lots of "on-tap" help up from a mother/mother-in-law etc etc.

[hiphopcr]

Not every job in visual effects has such intense hours. I work about 40-45 hours per week and it works out great. By the way, any relation to the crappy town of Lompoc on the central coast of California?

[Lompoc42]

Not every job in visual effects has such intense hours. I work about 40-45 hours per week and it works out great. By the way, any relation to the crappy town of Lompoc on the central coast of California?

Hah! Yes in fact it does. I was born there and hence have an affinity for the name, although not so much the place. It used to be beautiful before all of us space program folk left and devastated the local economy. I've heard it has really gone down hill. I wouldn't know, though, haven't been there in years.

As for working hours. Like I said, even if it did turn out to be a fantastical wild ride on the "no life, only work" train, I think it'd be worth it in the long run. It wouldn't be forever, only the length of the contract, and the foot in the door would be the biggest benefit. Maybe then I wouldn't have to teach anymore :) I do like teaching, though, and I think I'd want to lend any new found knowledge to future students. God knows I've benefited from the knowledge of others who were so graciously willing to share and enlighten. It's only fair.

[levent k.]

scwatman i watched your showreel,its really good.
i have a question, can you explain(simply) the car scene in your showreel, i dont fully understand how do you make the scene.where are the place you masked?(the car or you)
sorry for my english is not quite well.

[scwatman]

Hey levent k

yeah no problem.

well firstly i'll say i had a cannon xl1 to shoot my own footage. it was set up on a static (no camera moves) tripod.

shooting.

with the camera locked in place (much easier) record the footage i want. my brother getting into his car. then without moving the camera drive the car out of shot. then record a " clean plate" of the shot

comping.

1. roto a patch to go over the car using the clean plate footage i recorded. it doesnt have to be the same shape as the car, a larger patch makes it easier to blend the two elements.

2. i then rotoed the car (with shadow) and placed it back over the new comp.

3. i animated the car roto to look like it was appearing from nowwhere. (the roto shape grew to show more of the car and also had a fade and blur but on it)

4. i then rotoed my brother as he walk past the car.

5. then put it all together.

i hope that helps. it really is quite simple once you know what your doing.
anymore questions just ask.

cheers
scwatman

[levent k.]

scwatman, thanks for the help.

[hiphopcr]

Hah! Yes in fact it does. I was born there and hence have an affinity for the name, although not so much the place. It used to be beautiful before all of us space program folk left and devastated the local economy. I've heard it has really gone down hill. I wouldn't know, though, haven't been there in years.

Uh yeah, Lompoc is a strange little place... weird looking people, weird place. I'm from Santa Maria, that's how I got my start (Cafe FX). Good luck getting a job, the most important thing is living near VFX houses (So. Cal) and getting some type of demo reel together to send out and beg for an internship. Even if it's for free; however, not for too long. Production experience is KEY when getting into visual effects.

[Bananadude]

I just discovered this super thread! Been a while since any activity on this one, but I had a few questions for you scwatman. I'm looking to start the compositing course at Escape later this year, and I'm really looking forward to that. Quite a departure from what I'm doing right now, and this is all totally new to me, so forgive me if my questions are a bit obvious and/or tedious...

1.) When it comes to the process of compositing, rotoscoping etc. is working on film much easier than video? Would a prospective employer be more enticed by someone's skills if they had worked on film rather than video? I don't mean a proper feature or commercial, I just mean if they had worked on anything shot on film and had this on their reel. Personally, I have some DoP contacts and may be in a position to get some stuff done on film should the need ever arise. Or would this not really make much difference?

2.) I understand your explanation of how you did the car shot on your reel. It makes sense to me, from a logical point of view. However, I am a bit puzzled when I look at the more complex shots you see in film and commercials, where the camera is moving, and you have actors moving etc. and the use of bluescreen. It just seems so complex a process, and a world away from your car example. Is it really that much more complicated? The process you describe for your car shot seems like it would be the most laborious process in the world when applied to some shots in Harry Potter for example. I guess I'll learn more as I go, but at this point it all just seems a bit daunting!!

3.) When it comes to showreels, is there anything inparticular prospective employers like to see, in terms of specific shots, particular compositing/rotoscoping skills etc.? Probably a while before I need to start worrying about that, but I figure any knowledge you may be able to impart certainly won't hurt.

Thanks very much for your time, and best of luck with your career...

[naveen]

its been very long since i posted last in this thread....i think this thread shoud win oscar for its own category,no thread ive ever come across on any website running for so long and huge no of artist, specialy beginers like me got help a lot....just wanna say cheers and thanks to scwatman n all .

[scwatman]

Hey bananadude

yeah its been i while since i wrote anythin on this thread but this simply because i havent been asked anythin. im still happy to keep it goin if anyone has any questions that havent been answered already.


1.) When it comes to the process of compositing, rotoscoping etc. is working on film much easier than video? Would a prospective employer be more enticed by someone's skills if they had worked on film rather than video? I don't mean a proper feature or commercial, I just mean if they had worked on anything shot on film and had this on their reel. Personally, I have some DoP contacts and may be in a position to get some stuff done on film should the need ever arise. Or would this not really make much difference?

The simple answer for this is no it doesnt really matter. dont get me wrong working with film or even HD footage is easier and the results generally look better (given u do it right) but i dont think its a deal breaker if you dont have film shots on ur reel. I personally had no film fooatge on my very first reel it was all shot at PAL res and that got me a job at MPC. If u go to escape they will have film plates for you to play with anyway. lots of entry level 2d people dont have film examples on their reel.

i will say that if you can get your hands on film fooatge then by all means do, always try and get the best quality footage you can after all u cant polish a turd.


2.) I understand your explanation of how you did the car shot on your reel. It makes sense to me, from a logical point of view. However, I am a bit puzzled when I look at the more complex shots you see in film and commercials, where the camera is moving, and you have actors moving etc. and the use of bluescreen. It just seems so complex a process, and a world away from your car example. Is it really that much more complicated? The process you describe for your car shot seems like it would be the most laborious process in the world when applied to some shots in Harry Potter for example. I guess I'll learn more as I go, but at this point it all just seems a bit daunting!!

your not wrong it is a world away from my little car shot but the principles are the same. basically u hide what u dont want and roto back in what u do!

since u mentioned harry potter ill use the voldemort nose stuff i did as an example.

everytime voldemort turned his head side on we had to totally remove it from shot. the first step is to study the plate and figure out the movement of the background and the foreground (voldermort). we then create a still of a clean background and then try to match the background movement by tracking it. once that is moving correctly we roto the foreground back over the clean plate.

yes i to really can get very complicated i recently did a shot that required around 50 layers to be tracked and comped to remove a foreground element.
i had to strip it right back to the sky and then build up bushes, trees, shadows and even single branches all which moved independently. that was fun!


3.) When it comes to showreels, is there anything inparticular prospective employers like to see, in terms of specific shots, particular compositing/rotoscoping skills etc.? Probably a while before I need to start worrying about that, but I figure any knowledge you may be able to impart certainly won't hurt.

well i always say that if your going for a roto job show that u can roto. simple. many people who know the basics of comping feel the need to spend months doing 1 hugely complex comping shot for their reels. in my humble opinion thats a waste of time. why have one half decent comp on ur reel when u could have 6 great roto and paint related shots.

i cant stress this point enough get ur own footage! the problem with most comping courses is that u all work on the same shots and as a result all the students reels look the same. you can hire a 3 ccd camera of even HD now a days cheaply (get a few class mates to chip in) and get unique footage. people walking is always a good start.

i hope tat helps

cheers

scwatman

[a2visual]

Great thread! I've copied some tips and tricks and printed them out as reference. I have a few questions about roto work for you:

1) How often do you preview your shot, and how many frames in do you do your first preveiw? I guess it's something that you feel out over time, but I'm curious how you handle this on shots for movies.

2) Do you use a Wacom tablet to roto, or just a mouse? Do you prefer a tablet? I've roto'd a little with a tablet and find it easier, and quicker.

Thanks for all the insight so far, this has definately been very inspiriational to me.

EDIT: One more question, I just noticed that Dneg worked on United 93. Did you do any shots on this film? I just watched it opening night, and I'll have to say, the vfx in that film were extraordinary in that they served the story perfectly and invisibly.

[scwatman]

hey a2visual


1) How often do you preview your shot, and how many frames in do you do your first preveiw? I guess it's something that you feel out over time, but I'm curious how you handle this on shots for movies.

well i cant say i have a set routine for this it all depends on the shot i suppose. i try to get things set up a bit before i start previewing things. for instance if i need to track a shape id do that first and then preview that to see how good the track is or set up the obvious key frames i need.

when working with film the more complex shots can take a while to preview (flipbook)so i might just do 100 frames or even just a single part of the shot (maybe 1 person) at a time.


2) Do you use a Wacom tablet to roto, or just a mouse? Do you prefer a tablet? I've roto'd a little with a tablet and find it easier, and quicker.

yeah i use a wacom for all my comping and roto work. i started off using a mouse for roto and it did the job just fine its not until u get hard paint stuff that u realise how great a wacom really is. Dont get me wrong they can take some getting used to but after a while u'll wonder how u ever did without it.


I just noticed that Dneg worked on United 93. Did you do any shots on this film? I just watched it opening night, and I'll have to say, the vfx in that film were extraordinary in that they served the story perfectly and invisibly.

yeah double negative did a shed load of shots for United 93 but no i didnt work on that show. yeah i think invisibly is the right word for it, the guys here did a great job. i doubt many people will notice half the stuff they did on that show. it hasnt been released in the uk yet so we'll have to wait a while before we see it.

cheers

scwatman

cheers

[a2visual]

Thanks for the reply, one more question about the Wacom. Since you use dual monitors, which model do you use? I recently purchased a 6x8 to use on my dual monitor set-up, but I didn't like being able to use only half the tablet for doing roto work in the viewer. I know you change it to affect one screen only, but when I had to go to the second screen, I didn't like having to grab the mouse to get there. So, I returned the 6x8 and now I'm contemplating which one to get considering they just released the widescreen versions.

[vedranfx]

WOW, i'm really amazed what i have read through these 10 pages of the topic. THANKS ALOT scwatman! You really help people here understand how all that proces should go and even you explained them (to me too :) ) some processes inolved in this industry.

I started with shake this year, and altho it wasn't my first choice (Fusion 5 was first) i hear and see Shake is used alot as FILM compositor and many studios use it daily, second, the shake has all comping process seen as pure MATH which can be hard, but it's better then some package which you use nodes what you have no clue what actually happens with RGB information (fusion is one example, shake is much more complicated which is BETTER to understand compositing process, at least was for me). I have bought Gnomon DVD's and it's a great start, but i wouldn't suggest it as start for Shake in this case, my start pure start was Apple Pro Training: Shake4 Professional Compositing and Visual Effects (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0321256093/sr=1-1/qid=1146655224/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-0781536-1164042?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=books) which is EXTREMELY good start even for compositing process itself i learned most of stuff i know now from that book. It may appear that i'm experienced user but it's not true ;), i just have good understanding of this, you can see on my website (http://www.vedranfx.com) how poor examples i have to show, but so far i like what i have learned. Just starting with "moving" stuff, gonna shoot some first footages soon :)

Oh and i'm using Shake 4 on linux made dual boot just for it, and windows version is just for playing around (since it's old and missing some stuff)

My questions would be:

1. Since you are shake user, what do you suggest me to master first, since it's so many areas (keying, comping, tracking, roto, paint..) to build nice looking reel?

2. Also in rotoscoping what means "set" keyframes, since it's done automatically, you have auto-keyframe on, move to frame which you want to work on, move the shape and it's animated that way..dont know the part SET :|

3. When you got your first at job (at MPC right) how they acted to you, giving you too much work at first, or easier stuff so they can see how are you doing it (bad/good)

Sorry for longer post, and questions, well can't think of good ones, maybe i will post some later :D

Thanks alot for sharing this information i really appreciate it!

[scwatman]

hey a2visual


one more question about the Wacom. Since you use dual monitors, which model do you use? I recently purchased a 6x8 to use on my dual monitor set-up, but I didn't like being able to use only half the tablet for doing roto work in the viewer. I know you change it to affect one screen only, but when I had to go to the second screen, I didn't like having to grab the mouse to get there. So, I returned the 6x8 and now I'm contemplating which one to get considering they just released the widescreen versions.

right now i use a intous 2 a4. so prob the same as u. ive got it set up to work over both monitor (half each) and it works great. i can see how u dont like, it your movements have to b much smaller but like every wacom u get used to it, now i dont even think about it. dont get me wrong id like a larger one but i cant really be bothered asking for one besides the matte painters need them more than i do.

i havent seen a widescreen version as yet but it sounds pretty cool to me. if u can afford it and really want one then yeah go for it but im sure that if u gave ur current wacom a chance u'll get used to it. i only really use my mouse to scroll things (web pages, lists etc) poor little thing.

hope that helps
scwatman

[scwatman]

Hey vedranfx

thanks glad to hear my thread still is doing what i set it up for.


1. Since you are shake user, what do you suggest me to master first, since it's so many areas (keying, comping, tracking, roto, paint..) to build nice looking reel?

well the book use using is a good start it covers a wide range of topics u'll need to master (one day!). well the main things to do at the start is try and get ur head round the software your using. shake can be hard at first but once u start to locate all the different nodes etc it becomes much clearer.

glad 2 hear ur going to shoot some footage, id say start simple with a locked off camera(no movement) and concentrate on simply rotoing objects in that shot. like people walking or cars driving. maybe shoot a couple of plates u could make a comp from (without moving the camera).

once u know how to roto id say move on to tracking and stabilizing stuff that way u can start to have moving shots. although not every shot needs tracking it can help to pick up ay slight camera shake (or remove it) that would take ages to key frame.

then its time to start having fun with all the comp stuff.


2. Also in rotoscoping what means "set" keyframes, since it's done automatically, you have auto-keyframe on, move to frame which you want to work on, move the shape and it's animated that way..dont know the part SET :|

well we use the phrase "set a key frame" it really just means what u say. u can move a roto shape all day long but with out the key frame button turned on it wont be "set". it just mean to make a key frame.


3. When you got your first at job (at MPC right) how they acted to you, giving you too much work at first, or easier stuff so they can see how are you doing it (bad/good)

yeah it was at MPC. emm in all honesty i was just given a computer and a shot and ask to do it. i dont think the shot was easy as such but i think i was given much longer to do it. i wasnt left alone either i could always just ask my supervisor for any help. it seems to be ur given a week to settle in before they start hitting u with a full run of shots (unless ur unlucky or a sessioned pro).

thanks

scwatman

[vedranfx]

Thank you scwatman for your quick reply :) seeing topics like this really helps for newbies like me. Now "set" keyframe is clear hehe thanks hope to update my website soon with some nice roto work like you suggested and then let you know.

Cheers!
:cheers:

[Bananadude]

Quick question - how important is maths knowledge/ability when using Shake (or generally in compositing)? I've seen the 'm' word mentioned a few times in discussions about Shake, and I wonder how important a role it plays? It's not an area I am very strong in at all (scraped through at school), so that aspect does have me a bit worried. Is maths used much, how exactly is it used, and do you need to be Stephen Hawking? Thanks.

[vedranfx]

Quick question - how important is maths knowledge/ability when using Shake (or generally in compositing)? I've seen the 'm' word mentioned a few times in discussions about Shake, and I wonder how important a role it plays? It's not an area I am very strong in at all (scraped through at school), so that aspect does have me a bit worried. Is maths used much, how exactly is it used, and do you need to be Stephen Hawking? Thanks.

hehe not exactly Stephen Hawking, it's not THAT hard..the M you saw few times i think it means Multiply, and you also have Add operations. Simple operations which add or multiple divide or even extract color channel..There are some more complex "math" stuff like writing expressions which is even beyond me for now. So what i meant with math is those operations, every node is one operation which do something with color for example. I like to understand what really happens with that information because i understand whole process better then, but it's not required you can relax ;)

Hope this helped,

Vedran

[adolf]

hi scwatman !
how r u doing ! i would be very happy if u answer a few of my questions !
at ur studio :
1) is there an apprenticeship facility to learn vfx?
2)how many departments u have ? what is the structure and organization of various departments ?
3)what is the procedure from previz to completion of the final shot ?
4) how many artists are required to complete 1 shot ?
5) how do we contact ur studio for training ? if allowed !
6) what r the various job profiles ?

i shall be very glad if u answer these !
thanks !
adolf
smoke editor and compositor
yash_2001us@yahoo.com

[Tahllulah]

So what are you working on now?

xx
Lullah

[vijoo_n]

Hi scwatman,

First of all thanx for this thread, its been very helpful for starters like me :-). I have been reading stuff abt Compositing and always wanted 2 get into this. I am currently working in print medium (good hand on photoshop, illustrator and some flash also) for almost 10yrs now. I heard abt adobe after fx thru a friend and learnt a bit of it, nothing specific just some animation and stuff in it. I want 2 become a gud roto artist 2 begin with, explore the industry and then choose what i want 2 do later. Now, i want 2 understand roto clearly and get some basic exposure, so how do i go abt it.

1. should i buy books 2 learn roto
2. gnomon cds/dvds (do they have anything specific 4 roto).

there are lots of post-production companies here in dubai, want 2 learn some basics before i can approach someone for (free) part-time employment/internship.

[stevenbray1]

Good questions. Very good in fact.

If anyone knows any good books/DVDs on roto then PLEASE post them to help future generations.

I had to learn "on the job".

Anything on GENUINELY ADVANCED COMPOSITING would be appreciated too.

All the books/DVD's I've seen seem to be for mid-level or wannabe mid-level artists. There's nothing really for the newbies to FX or for the old-Pros (I'm a wannabe "old-Pro").

[scwatman]

hey guys

sorry its been a while since ive checked this for some reason ive stopped getting emails when people post here not sure why.

adolf:


1) is there an apprenticeship facility to learn vfx?

no that im aware of. some companies do allow work experience for a short period of time (ud have to contact each company) but as for a whole apprenticeship i dont know of any. not sure if ud class a runner as an apprentice of sorts as they are often allowed to learn on the job.


2)how many departments u have ? what is the structure and organization of various departments ?

i'll come back to this when i have time, it could take me a while to write out. sorry


3)what is the procedure from previz to completion of the final shot ?

well it all really depends on the shot or the project. some companies work right from previz to film out where other companies get the previz given to them and the do the rest. it also depends on the kind of previz, sometimes the previz is a simple concept proof and the final shot looks very different or it can be a full animatic with everythin mapped out.


4) how many artists are required to complete 1 shot ?

again depends on the shot (and the company pipeline i suppose). if a shot needs a simple 2d solution the it could be 1 or 2 artists but if it needs a full 3d one it could be 4-5 +.

e.g 2D team: roto artist, matte painter and compositor
3D team: matchmover, modeller, animator and TD


5) how do we contact ur studio for training ? if allowed !


again many companies dont offer training as such but the only way to find out is to get in contact with them. a simple email is the best way and maybe a follow up call but remember most companies are very busy and wont have the time to get back to u if its a no.



6) what r the various job profiles ?

again this is a big question ill need to get back to this one.

sorry adolf i feel like ive not really said much for these ones. i will tho when i get a chance.

cheers

[scwatman]

hey


So what are you working on now?

im working on a alfonso cuaron film called children of men.

http://imdb.com/title/tt0206634/

its looking really cool. cant really talk about it tho.

phew that was an easy one

cheers

[Bananadude]

Not sure if you've answered this before, but can you give an indication as to what kind of salary a good roto-artist/compositor can earn? Or does it vary wildy? Do you set your own price, or is there a rough industry standard per hour/per day? Thanks...

[coupon]

Hey man,
I've been doing roto for a few years now, but haven't really gotten into the paint side of things too much, a bit here and there but I'm hardly adept in it, I'm mainly comfortable with offset and reveal stuff and markers on screens, not so much with hand painting or complex removals. Know of any specific resources for whipping up clean plates, rig/marker removal, prep work or any of that sort of stuff?

I've just moved to London to seek out some more roto or matchmoving work, do you think the shortfall of paint work would harm my chances a lot or do you work alongside dedicated roto artists?

Did you hook up work through agencies or direct contact.

Last question, I should really do my own homework. Are you guys busy at the moment? I need to give your boss a call :)

[scwatman]

hey vijoo_n

firstly sorry for the really late reply here ive just been really busy and im glad this thread has helped u out.

i feel im going to short change you here with my answers but here goes.


should i buy books 2 learn roto

i have to date not heard of, found or seen a book purely on rotoscoping and trust me i looked. other than books on general comping stuff or a specific comping program anything on roto can be hard to get ur hands on. ive no idea why, its an key part of compositing.


gnomon cds/dvds (do they have anything specific 4 roto).

as far as im aware gnomon dont have a rotoscoping dvd out. again no idea why i think it would be a great addition to their 2d series. but saying that they recently released a matchmoving dvd which is the same level for 3d as roto is for 2d so maybe its only a matter of time.

i know ive been no help what so ever but if u've any more questions just ask.

cheers

[scwatman]

hey Bananadude


can you give an indication as to what kind of salary a good roto-artist/compositor can earn? Or does it vary wildy? Do you set your own price, or is there a rough industry standard per hour/per day?

yeah i ansered this a while back i think on the first or second page.

well it depends where in the world ur working, who for and ur experience but each company will have a rough pay structure worked out already. there will always be some room to talk you fee up but at entry level like roto there is only so far you can push without years of experience.

its industry standard to be paid by the day (unless u are staff) for freelance work. and your question on how much for a roto/ compositor, how longs a piece of string (&#163;75 a day up to &#163;500 +)

cheers

[scwatman]

hey coupon


Know of any specific resources for whipping up clean plates, rig/marker removal, prep work or any of that sort of stuff?

by resources u mean programs? there are a few programs out there that can do wire removal and simple rig stuff (furnace for example) but nothing that will work 100% of the time or on anything to complex..


do you think the shortfall of paint work would harm my chances a lot or do you work alongside dedicated roto artists?

nope i dont see any reason it would harm your chances. some companies have dedicated paint artists and seperate paint people. if your just starting at a company and your paint out isnt that great it'll will just be given to the more experience people and u can learn on the job.

im not saying theres no need to learn it, if u have the time then the more u know and can show the better its just not a do or die situation.


Did you hook up work through agencies or direct contact.

nah i never botherd with an agencey i just contacted the companies i wanted to work at and asked if they were looking. simple. i didnt always get a reply but mostly they came back to me eventually. just get ur reeel in order and send it out to everyone.


Are you guys busy at the moment?

i dont really want 2 go into the details and runnings of my work ill just say, yes we are.

its a great time to start looking for work in london there is loads of projects coming up over the next couple of months. like potter 5 etc.

cheers

[scwatman]

hey everyone

as you can see this thread has started again (not that it ever stopped i just stopped getting alerts). so keep your questions coming.
ill check here more often i promise.

cheers

scwatman

[coupon]

hey coupon



by resources u mean programs? there are a few programs out there that can do wire removal and simple rig stuff (furnace for example) but nothing that will work 100% of the time or on anything to complex..



Nope, more tutorials, tips on method etc. rather than software.

[mproffer]

Were you serious about around 900 (USD) a day? Working 5 days a week and 35 weeks (random number) thats 157k a year...

Can compositors make 6 figures a year?

[Aruna]

You'd have to pretty special to make that much, but I can see some FFI artists making that. They're worth their weight in gold, and have to deal with a lot more. I did FFI work for about three years, but not that rate. The rate for those rooms are around that price though (500 to 1500/day or more), but the artist doesn't get all of that. It goes to the upkeep of the machines and the fancy perks.


Were you serious about around 900 (USD) a day? Working 5 days a week and 35 weeks (random number) thats 157k a year...

Can compositors make 6 figures a year?

[mproffer]

so the only way to make the big bucks is to own a production house?

[scwatman]

hey mpoffer


Were you serious about around 900 (USD) a day?, Can compositors make 6 figures a year?

as aruna says you'd have to something special to get that but yeah it can happen.
its not unheard of for a really (and i mean really really) good compositor to earn &#163;60k up to &#163;100k. but dont get over excited most will never get to the highest number just as a comping grunt, ud need to be a vfx supervisor for that.

a guy i know with 10 years experience is on a not so small fotune.


so the only way to make the big bucks is to own a production house?

well u have to think abhout the industry we work in, dealing with multi million dollar projects for major studios. artists can make a seriously good living going this job but in reference to your question god only knows what people who own vfx companies make (although many are owned by other companies and not single people)

cheers

scwatman

[Aruna]

That's $110k to $184k US a year. Keep in mind it's a little more expensive to live in the UK. How much more expensive, I don't know.

As per production houses, some artists have their own.. Take the Strause brothers with Hydraulx. They're doing well for themselves.



its not unheard of for a really (and i mean really really) good compositor to earn £60k up to £100k. but dont get over excited most will never get to the highest number just as a comping grunt, ud need to be a vfx supervisor for that.

scwatman

[mproffer]

So there is potential to make 6 figures, but you have to put in a lot of years and become a lead supervisor... it's kinda like teaching, you don't do it for the money, you do it for the passion

[hiphopcr]

Were you serious about around 900 (USD) a day? Working 5 days a week and 35 weeks (random number) thats 157k a year...

I don't know where that $900 a day figure came from... if you did that for a whole year you're sitting on almost a quarter million dollars.


Can compositors make 6 figures a year?

I'd say yes, but I wouldn't know from experience :)

[mproffer]

(£75 a day up to £500 +)


I converted that to USD which is 900 USD... one pound is worth 1.8 us dollars (sucks for us stateside)...

[SalaTar]

If anyone knows any good books/DVDs on roto then PLEASE post them to help future generations.



Animation: Mirage
Comping : Silhouette

[revslide]

Hi scwatman ,

May i know the title of the soundtrack you used for your showreel?

Great reel btw!

[scwatman]

hey revslide

thanks.

yeah sure it was Kasabian and the song was called Club Foot

since i used that ive seen it (well heard it) on loads of showreels and tv show. what can i say i am a trend setter.

cheers

[Marsinfur]

I just went through all 12 pages love the whole write up
But one question you, if you want to hire or outsource roto jobs, what job profile would you give the person or comapnies and at what rate ? beacuse it has to be cheaper to outsource than to hire roto artist.
I have some work which i would eventually outsource.
Any kind of feed back would be helpful
Cheers

[scwatman]

oh yeah, cleared the 10,000 hits mark!

i hope everyone (a few people) has found this thread a bit useful.
cheers for keeping it alive for so long. I have 2 admit i didnt think when i started it all those months ago id still be doing it.

if only id know i would of charged for advice!!!

[scwatman]

hey marsinfur


what job profile would you give the person or comapnies and at what rate ?

hmmmmm, thats tough one for a couple of reasons. 1 it depends on the job, is it 100% roto is there and prep/ paint stuff? 2. what quality of artist are you looking for? students, pros etc? 3. what kind of budget are you looking at? 4. how quickly do u need it?

when u say "it has to be cheaper to outsource than to hire roto artist." do u mean "outsource" as in work from home or an external company and "hire a roto artist" as employing an on site artist to come to you?

id have to say it depends on the size of the job but id say yeah in general outsourcing can be an easier cheaper way of doing things.

feel free to send me a PM with some info so i can give you a better answer.

cheers

scwatman

[vijoo_n]

Hi scwatman,
Though i had posted this question earlier, am just tryin 2 rephrase it. How do i become a roto-artist. Now since there aren't any books available in specific, should i attend some school. Here in Dubai (thats where i live), this industry is still in a budding state, not sure if i can find a school that would teach roto. Should i join some studio (lots here) as a trainee, work free there and learn. I know after fx and 3d max.

Cheeers,

Vijay

[scwatman]

hey vijoo_n


How do i become a roto-artist. Now since there aren't any books available in specific, should i attend some school. Here in Dubai (thats where i live), this industry is still in a budding state, not sure if i can find a school that would teach roto. Should i join some studio (lots here) as a trainee, work free there and learn. I know after fx and 3d max.

hmmmmmmmmmm. now this is a good question that im sure most people who want a career in 2d vfx have had, unfortunatly there is no quick fix for this. At the moment roto seems to be a area of vfx that doesnt get much coverage (or praise for that matter).
there is no school i know of that does simple roto they are mor comping class that has a bit of roto in it.

well if u can afford to join a company without getting paid then by all means try but u could always look for a runners job and work your way up within the company. Many runners get a chance to learn roto/ comping after work or weekends. Saying that however im not sure a company would give u a roto job (free or not) if you dont have a showreel or experience of some kind.

since u say u know after effects use that for roto, ive never used ae so i cant say if its good for roto or not. getting you hands on the footage is the tricky part. get some footage of a dvd and roto that, i did that for part of my showreel (a uy from the Little Britain tv show waving his arms around).

ive said this before on this thread but if u can then rent a good quality video camera either 3ccd or now an HDV camera and the roto it.

i hop that helped

and sorry for the late reply.

scwatman

[Nath82]

I know it doesn't really help you in Dubi but Zero1 in London offer a 3 day Roto'ing in Shake course and allow you to take footage away with you.

http://www.01zero-one.co.uk/courses.htm

Hope this helps people
Nath

[crazycat]

I am looking for some help to appease this frustration. Im using shake 3.5 and I am just wondering what the best way to roto is. Currently I am using rotoshape but I am wondering if quickpaint would be a better solution...I tend to get a bit of glitching going on with rotoshape(bezier curves). Can anyone in the industry help give me an idea of which way is best to rid of this glitching? paint or rotoshape...or am I just being sloppy with the rotoshape tool.
Is there a general rule when to use which? From some research I see that faster, more irradic movement calls for quickpaint (vector paint). Is this true. Will this solve the glitching problem?

[Hugh]

I believe Escape's course in Shake is geared towards people who are going to be going into Roto teams in the post companies in London. I think they mainly cover roto, keying and basic compositing....

[Fortune]

Hi!

Did they look for a roto-artist? Our do you send out your reel to every company in london?

cheers,

Fortune

[scwatman]

hey crazycat

im not really sure what u mean by "glitching" i always just use the rotoshape node in shake and it works great for me. if u explain a bit what u mean i'll try and help out.

one thing i will say is that trying to roto using a quickpaint can be very difficult. its hard to get hard to keep smooth edges.

cheers

scwatman

[scwatman]

hey hugh

yeah i know escape aim there course at the junior end of the scale. when i went there (2years ago) i didnt really ge a huge amount of roto stuff. im sure its changed since then as escape hase come along leaps and bounds recently.

looking at their website it seems they give a week to roto & tracking.

cheers

[scwatman]

hey fortune


Did they look for a roto-artist? Our do you send out your reel to every company in london?

when i first got my reel together i sent it out to as many people as i could all over london.
nothing really come from my first reel so i went back and started another. i knew the industry was reving up for the start of harry potter 4 so i got my new reel to as many people as i could. once it was sent i sent emails to check they got it etc and just to ask if they knew when they would be looking. nothing over the top just a quick email.

i just kept an eye on the companies web sites for job updates, checked vfxtalk.com (the new vfxjobs.com) and vfxworld jobs section.

hope that helps

scwatman

[aidangibbons]

Hey scwatman, i just started (about a month ago) as a 3d op in the mill - should go for a drink sometime :)

[jaackofalltrades]

Hi, I am Zubin I am doing an animation and specialFX course from Arena Multimedia in Kolkata (India).

The software industry is racing to make changes in their software, and I find that while we are learning a software a new version is realised where we can do things at a lesser time. While I used to spend hours to get an effect in the older version software. Is it necessary to keep upgrading in order to stay in the industry. Does that mean if you are an expert with 3Ds max 5 and a person who knows 3Ds max 7 or 8 stands a better chance in the industry or to get a job.
Regards,

Zubin Advani.

(Reply at realtime5000@hotmail.com)

[dell]

This is a great thread so thanks to everyone, just a few questions for scwatman.


How will you become a compositor, i.e. will you push for a more diverse workload at DN or else where. Or will you have to produce all the work after hours/practising.


Does the software you use really make a difference when applying for a roto job within the big production houses? I produce all my roto/paint work within After Effects, would this cause a problem?

Are most of the jobs contract/temp per film, or are there many full-time positions.

Once you finish work, is the trip home very long? Do you have a lot of people who travel from outside of London i.e. Midlands?

I have loads more questions, just can't remember them ;)

Thanks again I think this is so valuable. CHeers:detective

[everlite]

Hey Scwatman,

Really inspiring read, i'm in a design job, that fortunately pays very well but unfortunately is really crap work, brochures etc. I've always had a strong interest in 3d and i'm now pushing towards understanding compositing.

Just wondering, This might sound a really stupied question, so please forgive me, but what exactly is rotoscoping and the process behind it?

Is it effectively creating a path around an object in each and every frame and then removing it? (sounds very repetitive) What do you replace it with? do you sample surrounding areas, which would seem simple for wires but actors wouldn't be as simple i think?

And second, should i make a conserted effort towards compositing? How easy do you think it is to get a job in this area? if i sent out a good home made reel tomorrow to a bunch of VFX houses would i expect a positive response?

And finally, what do you think makes a good reel?

Cheers in advance - Dave.

[hiphopcr]

I'm not Scwatman but I got the notifying email first that there was activity in this thread so I'll answer :)

Good questions Dave.

What exactly is rotoscoping? You know the pen tool in photoshop, it's like doing that to cut people out on a frame-by-frame basis (although it's not necessary frame-by-frame, but check out the video below for more on that :)). Like you said, it's effectively creating a path around an object and yeah, it's repetitive. You don't necessary roto actors to remove them, usually you roto actors to put a different background behind them. For a very in-depth look at roto check out this video:

http://effectscorner.blogspot.com/2006/01/rotoscoping-part-1.html

there's also a part 2.

How do you get a job in compositing? You need to work your way up. You should shoot some footage and roto some stuff out. Check out Ian Holland's reel at this thread:

http://www.vfxtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6315

It's a good example of how to "show" your roto (white/black breakdowns). Or you can skip over to mandy.com (http://www.mandy.com/1/jobs2.cfm?terr=wld&skill=pst&paid=no) and volunteer to do some unpaid work to use that for your reel. Bottom line, unless you know somebody the only way you're gonna get in the business is by your reel, and the best way to get into compositing is to start off as a roto guy.

Can you expect some positive responses? Depends. It's harder to get into the industry without industry experience (but how do you get industry experience if no one will hire you due to your lack of industry experience....? :)) but a decent reel will give you a chance, and I always see job postings for roto artists.

I would encourage you to get started on your demo reel asap and get the process going. Even if you don't hear back you can always send an updated reel later on, they won't hold it against you.

For more jobs check out 2-pop (http://www.2-popforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=180) and vfxjobs.com (http://www.vfxjobs.com/forum/). Good luck and always ask questions!

[hiphopcr]

How will you become a compositor, i.e. will you push for a more diverse workload at DN or else where. Or will you have to produce all the work after hours/practising.

Scwatman has already become a compositor... it's probably keeping him really busy so that's why he hasn't responded to you yet :)

[Yossarian!]

And second, should i make a conserted effort towards compositing? How easy do you think it is to get a job in this area? if i sent out a good home made reel tomorrow to a bunch of VFX houses would i expect a positive response?

A point I think has been a little overlooked in this (fantastic) discussion is the value of networking. So many jobs in this industry are filled by reputation and word of mouth, particularly in smaller industries (such as here in Sydney) where big shops don't exist or don't regularly advertise vacancies. I know its a trickier point to 'how-to', but making friends and contacts is invaluable in this industry. Favours go a long way, as do positive stories about work experience kids.

Don't get me wrong - a reel demonstrating solid fundamentals is vital - but it won't necessarily magically unlock doors for you unless you market it well. Follow it up, be sociable and friendly (no-one wants to work with an uber-geek or asshole), remember key names, go to meets and drinks wherever possiblea, that kinda thing.

[everlite]

Hey thanks, that was really informative and helpful.

I've just dug out a piece of footage i took a few weeks ago of a road near my work, a few cars coming past, a bird flying over and a guy walking towards the camera, so say i wanted to take out one of the cars, could i use rotoscoping for this? as practice? to be honest i'm saying this but i haven't got a clue where to begin, i'm currently learning after effects for something else thinking i can do it in this, i'm not even sure how after effects comes into play with rotoscoping. Anyone use AF for rotoscoping?

Cheers again, i'm just about to watch the video links you suggestion.

I also agree that networking is a big factor when moving jobs, i've been working in the design industry for quite a few years now, mostly freelance, but in nearly every job i can think of i can't remember ever once using my portfolio as the main point of selling myself, it was more through people i knew and worked with, though my first job in the industry was six months unpaid, 2 days a week :-)

Cheers - Dave.

- Dave.

[hiphopcr]

Dave, I think you're criss-crossing paint and roto. The get rid of the car you need to composite the background over it. It's called "painting out" most of the time, but in reality it's putting a "clean patch" over the car to hide it.

One thing you can try is taking a still frame into photoshop and painting a "clean plate," or painting the car out. Then take the clean plate and track it into your footage.... easier said than done.

Since you're starting out I would recommend painting out something smaller. Or just starting off with roto. Ah screw it, I already wrote all this stuff somewhere... here it is:


Start off roto'ing, you'll always need to do at least a little roto. When you've got roto down start trying to track in your roto splines. When you've got tracking down, try doing simple wire removals by tracking in "clean patches". When you've got that down, try painting a little to make the clean plate blend in easier. When you've got painting down, try doing more complicated wire removals. When you've got more complicated wire removals down, try color correcting the clean patches and matching the grain to make them blend in more seamlessly.

Here's another great thread about this.

http://www.vfxtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6492

When you say "AF" do you mean After Effects? Anyway, After Effects absolutely sucks for roto (at least 6.5 did, maybe 7 is better) but it's a good way to learn. Bring out that pen tool and set some keyframes!

[everlite]

WOW! freaking hell, 30 minutes later and i've just knock out my first car! well for me that's REALLY amazing, sure it's just a walk in the park to you talented fellows, but for me, first step as they say :-)

Cheers, couldn't have done with without your help and inspiration.

Those two videos were great! very good explaination, i love how he does the run away levis ad.

So what next? any suggestions? i really loved the examples with the original reel posted where he made the guy look like a giant, it seems so simple, is this just simple roto'ing the guy out and placing him over the blank plate?

I'm really loving this.

Cheers again - Dave.

[Yossarian!]

Excellent to hear! There's nothing like finishing your first job. Look here in peoples entries for some more roto examples:

http://www.vfxtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3268

[fluidmotion]

hi guys.. Ive a question about roto... or about masking...when I have an object moving fast on my footage , generally they have blurry edges... what do you suggest me to mask them correctly..? I am working in a company here in turkey as assistant... and trying to improve my comp skills.. and new in this forum... thanks a lot.....

[hiphopcr]

Turn on the motion blur!

[avillabon]

Wow so much to read! This is very exciting! i just read all 14 pages (took me a couple of hours as i was checking all the links along the way) and i found very valuable tips, tricks and how to's!!

Thank you scwatman for starting such a great thread and sharing all you wisdom and experience with all of us noobies in the matter. Also thanks to everyone else who posted great comments and advice. This has to be the longest and most helpful thread i have ever found!

Scwatman i hope you are doing ok as i noticed that you have been inactive for over a month now! Im guessing the workload must be killing you! What are you working on right now?

I wanted to ask you, how long did it take you to make the leap from roto artist to compositor? By the way congrats on that!

Does anyone know of any good tutorials for ROTO online? Or maybe dvd training videos? .I know this has been asked several times during the existance of this thread but there is always new information on the web that you might know of.

Hope you are doing ok scwatman! If you get a chance swing by the thread an let us know how you are doing!!

cheers!

Alex.

[avillabon]

Forgot to ask something.... Just how important are drawing skills for this job if at all? Can it help you move up the chain or not really?

thanks

Alex.

[scwatman]

Hey fluidmotion

yeah as hiphopcr said the "blurry edges" you talk about is the motion blur. if you have a software with a motion blur option the roto as normal and then turn on motion blur.

id say when u start pick a position and stick with it. i.e either start where the blur ends or where it starts. (if that makes sense) . it u dont have a motion blur option or it just doesnt look right you can drag out/ in a softedge for the motion blur.

with motion blur it is not always possible to roto everything perfectly. sometimes the blurry edges allows the background to shine through. in these cases its sometimes best to just cut in a bit and then blur out. as with most things in 2d as long as the final element looks good it doesnt matter if it matches the original plate perfectly.

cheers

scwatman

[scwatman]

hey avillabon

yeah its been a while since i was contributing on here. sorry to anyone who i didnt get round to answering but i see others took to the floor in my place. cheers.



Scwatman i hope you are doing ok as i noticed that you have been inactive for over a month now! Im guessing the workload must be killing you! What are you working on right now?

i recently started on Harry Potter 5 but it was Children of Men that stopped me from getting on here much. It was a manic time for me i just bought a house (that needs lots of TLC) and was moving in in the midst of 15 hour days and some weekends. but it was all worth it, i now have a shinny new flat in the london docklands and have my name on the great film that is children of men.

i know children of men isnt out in the US till the end of they year so I wont go into detailsbut the stuff we did looks amazing (if i dont say so myself). I you can spot even 1/3rd of what we did ill give u a bannana.



I wanted to ask you, how long did it take you to make the leap from roto artist to compositor? By the way congrats on that!

shit i just looked back at this thread in 2 days (the 28th) this will have been going for a year! nice.

anyway. id say give or take i had the title of roto artist on my contract for just under a year. i say it like that cause i was give loads of comping stuff along the way. Ive been in this industry for around 14 months now. it was 3 months at MPC and the rest at Dneg.


Does anyone know of any good tutorials for ROTO online?

sorry but other than whats already been posted there is still jack shit out there for roto people.


Forgot to ask something.... Just how important are drawing skills for this job if at all? Can it help you move up the chain or not really?

ehhhh it does help to be "artistc" in this job as well knowing the software inside out but i wouldnt say that being good at drawing or painting really makes a great deal of difference. maybe when it comes to paint out work etc but with modren paint packages there is a lot more patching and cloning rather than free hand painting.

hope that helps

scwatman

[avillabon]

Awesome thanks! Will be waiting for children of men!

Alex

[Yossarian!]

It was a manic time for me i just bought a house (that needs lots of TLC) and was moving in in the midst of 15 hour days and some weekends. but it was all worth it, i now have a shinny new flat in the london docklands and have my name on the great film that is children of men.

Congrats! May your renovations be straightforward and your nesting tranquil.

[hiphopcr]

i recently started on Harry Potter 5 but it was Children of Men that stopped me from getting on here much. It was a manic time for me i just bought a house (that needs lots of TLC) and was moving in in the midst of 15 hour days and some weekends. but it was all worth it, i now have a shinny new flat in the london docklands and have my name on the great film that is children of men.
Congrats on the new pad! I'm still dreaming of buying a house on Belair street here in L.A. :)

[unxetas]

ah so you're scott taylor! I've seen your name around ;)

I have been following this thread, but for some reason I thought you started at DNeg and then moved on to MPC. I see it was the other way around..

Anyway, great thread, it has helped me quite a lot with getting a job - I even ended up at the same company as you haha

[mvkchaitu]

hi scwatman its really very nice of u to help novices,i am frm india i like movies a lot its a passion for me,i did my btech majoring in computers(software),but due to my passion i changed my field.and i am new to this field
i dont know even photoshop,right now i am learning shake at a local institute,
i just want to get some footages to work on becoz what we get in india are of
low quality,can u suggest me where i can get them on net,my dream is to become a part of mpc.thank u congrts on ur new designation,and also some free online resources

[blackmonkey]

Hi all, first of all this is such a helpful thread for someone who's just starting out, thank you all for contributing and sharing your knowlege. Can someone explain what a matchmoving artist do? and how it is related to roto artist and a compositor? I know it's about capturing live action camera movement to pcs so one can further move the camera in 3d space? and how does this related to tracking? Can you give me an example of this on a film? I hope I am not as confused as I think I am, thanks in advance!

[modernprimitive]

Hi all, first of all this is such a helpful thread for someone who's just starting out, thank you all for contributing and sharing your knowlege. Can someone explain what a matchmoving artist do? and how it is related to roto artist and a compositor? I know it's about capturing live action camera movement to pcs so one can further move the camera in 3d space? and how does this related to tracking? Can you give me an example of this on a film? I hope I am not as confused as I think I am, thanks in advance!

Hey blackmonkey.

Tracking works by selecting points on your live action plates and letting the computer determine their motion in 2D space - though human intervention is often involved. You can then "drive" another layer's transformation using that data. eg: you have done a sky replacement and you need your sky to move in sync with the original live action footage.

Matchmoving is the same kind of process but much more intensive and will give you a 3D camera in your 3D software that matches the movement of the original live action camera so that your CG camera pans, rotates, dollies, tilts etc in such a way that your CG looks integrated in the shot in terms of camera movement.

[crashd]

I know people hate, hate, hate talking about this, but how much can a fulltime roto/paint artist expect, im talking someone picked up on a contract per/annum, rather than a day/hour rate. I'd really appreciate a guide as im going for some positions in the near future and want to know what kind of ballpark to play in.

Thanks guys :)
D

[Hugh]

Depends on the city/company/level of experience...

And I seriously doubt that many places will be offering full-time roto jobs....

[crashd]

By fulltime I mean contractual, I guess, but im wondering how that'd pan out over a 12 month basis. I know a lot of the roto artists where I work are on contracts, but they have working here for a year, or 18 months, or whatever, and their contract keeps getting renewed.

[coupon]

most decent sized fx companies will have fulltime roto work

[Hugh]

Very true.

My post above was a little misleading... I meant to say that they wouldn't have staff roto jobs. Most will have a crew of roto people that is grown/shrunk depending on the projects.

[scwatman]

hey guys

i couldnt help but notice my lovely thread has been lost somewhere in the vastness of vfxtalk.com. i found it hard to find it and i knew it was there. so im going to cheat and post a pontless message just to make it more visible for new people.

hope no one minds.

oh and im still happy to answer questions (although i havent been able to recently)

cheers

scwatman

[stevenbray1]

It's called a "Bump". :)

And there's no need to make it a pointless message.

How's things?

[hiphopcr]

It's cool scwat, this has become one of the greatest resources for beginners of all time! It should be stickied anyway :)

[everlite]

I agree, make this one a sticky :-) So scwatman what you up to in recent days, tell us a little about your career since you started this thread so long ago, seen many changes?

- Dave.

[hype]

cool thread, scwatman! interesting to hear how thing work on the other side of the pond...

[gottony]

I have a question that I don't think has been addressed: what is recommended after graduating school 1) mailing out demo's and working the phones and make a few trips or 2) move to LA and try there and hope someone takes a bite? I'm about to graduate, my stuff is getting better, I'm getting experience at a architectural viz company doing post work. Should I take the plunge and hope for the best or will it hurt my chances by just going through the mail and phones? I'm in Miami and there really isn't anything around. Your thoughts?

[Aracore]

I'm almost finished a Visual Effects Program in Vancouver, and was wondering how important your resume is if you don't have any previous experience in this industry. Also, just out of curiosity: How do things like health care work if you are on a contract?


P.S. This thread has been very informative. Thanks

[scwatman]

hey

thanks everyone for your kind words.

[scwatman]

hey everlite


So scwatman what you up to in recent days, tell us a little about your career since you started this thread so long ago, seen many changes?

well ive been working my ass of in recent months either on potter 5 or renovating my new flat (although the flat has taken a back seat over xmas). career wise, wow now i think of it quiet a lot really. well when i started this i was one of the new roto boys at double negative, since then ive seen the company double in size and have had the great fortune to work on loads of great shows (and with loads of great people). ive been comping now for 5 months looking back id say i loved every minute of it but there have been a few late nights and weekends where i mite of said something different.

im also doing some matte painting (not at work really) and ive just treated myself to a new 4gb (of RAM, duh!) pc which should be arriving sometime soon. ive got a few personal projects lined up so ill be spending even more time at a computer. ill keep you posted on these later.

cheers

scwatman

[scwatman]

hey gottony


what is recommended after graduating school 1) mailing out demo's and working the phones and make a few trips or 2) move to LA and try there and hope someone takes a bite?

well first thing is to get your showreel perfect and i mean the shots dont worry about intros and music (they really do turn the sound off). once you have that your good to go.

this is a tricky one. i myself did option 1 but my friends here did option 2.

although the distance between glasgow and london is a hell of a lot less than miami and LA i think the principles are the same. i had just finished my course and created my demo reel but i couldnt really afford to move to london, get a flat and walk round all day looking for a job. so i sent showreels off to all the major and not so major vfx studios. although it took a while i heard back from a couple. what u have to remember is these companies recruit people from all over the world so doing a phone interview is not a problem.

the way i did it was to send my reel to a company then wait a couple of days and then send an email confirming they recieved it ok. if i didnt hear back i would work on my showreel some more maybe add a shot or two. dont be affraid to resend a showreel but i prefer to only do this if i have something new to show them. then email again!

in fact i sent exactly this after i sent an updated showreel.

"This is just a quick email to see if you received my
updated showreel and CV through the post? I believe
you already have my details on file from when i last
sent my showreel. I hope its not a problem to update
my file.

I have improved my showreel by adding a few new shots
and i have also updated my CV. I am hoping this will
help with my application for any roto/ paint positions
you may have currently or in the near future."

now for option 2. a few guys i know moved over from canada to hunt for jobs other than the advantage of being here to attend any interviews the proccess is really the same. hand in a show reel and wait. dont think just because you are in the same city as the studios you going to get invited in for coffee and a chat. if however your open to taking a runners job then being here can speed the process of getting a foot in the door up a fair bit.

but i think the best thing for anyone to do is get your showreel finished and send out a first wave while your still and home. its much cheaper and you can test the water. also a polite email asking if they are looking for any staff wont go do any harm.

good luck

i hope this helps

scwatman

[scwatman]

hey Aracore


how important your resume is if you don't have any previous experience in this industry. Also, just out of curiosity: How do things like health care work if you are on a contract?


other than attending Esacpe studios i didnt have any "experience" as such. at the lower end of the scale like roto showing the ability to do the job is more important than anything else. not to say that someone who has worked else where wont have a better chance im just saying dont give up just because you havent worked at a studio before.

experience on all levels counts best would be industry, then a uni/college course, then practical (maybe work for free on a short film or something). but most important is the showing what you can do.

oh and on the health care front ive got no idea how that works. im a Brit so we have the good old NHS. if anyone reading this thread can shed any light on this then feel free to comment.

cheers

scwatman

[hype]

Not many American fx facilities offer health care, and I'm pretty sure the ones that do are mostly the bigger companies. I'm not even sure how many of them do. The one I'm at does.

[girlcompositor]

I don't have health care with a facility, and have never been offered it to tell you the truth, but I have asked a few times, and I know people who have got it.

Generally small houses will not give you health care. Larger houses will if you have a contract more than 3 months, as that is when your health care will kick in.

I buy health care and pay for it on the side.

I know DD, Sony, and Rhythm have health care options for their employees, whether they will give it to you or you have to negotiate is another option. I'm not sure about some of the other houses.

[hype]

R&H you have to work at for at least 6 months and be considered long-term freelance. short-term freelance doesn't get benefits.

[hiphopcr]

Hype, at R&H are there staff positons or is everyone considered long or short-term freelance?

Long-term freelance is like an oxymoron :)

[hype]

hahaha, it is like an oxymoron!

there's staff people. There are people who have been here their entire careers. It kinda feels more family-ish than anywhere else i've ever worked. :)

[VFXTalkDotCom]

off topic but I stuck the thread at the top of the Beginners Talk forum - should have been done a long time ago!!!

[VFXTalkDotCom]

hey as a bit of a beginner myself :) i wanted to ask all the junior artists out there to give me the scoop on rotoscoping...

so basically, how important is it, how important do you think it is, how much time do you spend rotoscoping in your personal, freelance jobs and gigs and how much of a roto master do you think you need to be

how important to you are things like spline control, paint tools and tracking as a part of the rotoscoping pipeline, and what do you like or dislike about the workflow or whats missing

how do you address things like lots of grain in images or working around scanlines in dv footage and blockyness in mpeg footage

and also what do you like about the rotoscoping functions in the tools you use today, and how do you think they could be made better or easier to use...

thanks!
jah

[girlcompositor]

hey as a bit of a beginner myself :) i wanted to ask all the junior artists out there to give me the scoop on rotoscoping...

so basically, how important is it, how important do you think it is, how much time do you spend rotoscoping in your personal, freelance jobs and gigs and how much of a roto master do you think you need to be

how important to you are things like spline control, paint tools and tracking as a part of the rotoscoping pipeline, and what do you like or dislike about the workflow or whats missing

how do you address things like lots of grain in images or working around scanlines in dv footage and blockyness in mpeg footage

and also what do you like about the rotoscoping functions in the tools you use today, and how do you think they could be made better or easier to use...

thanks!
jah

Roto is very important. You might think that everything is dandy at a big studio and they shoot everything correctly, but a lot of times they don't or they change their minds after they've filmed.

I fully believe a good roto is better than a good key (except maybe on hair) any day.

Personally I spend a lot of time rotoing, freelance and normal work, although I get to do more compositing on freelance than at work. I don't think you necessarily have to be a roto master, but you shapes can't swim, flicker, or be inconsistent. I think it's pretty easy to learn, and everyone had their own techniques.

Tracking and spline handles are indispensable. If you don't have spline controls you need more points, the more points, the more work and the more likely it won't look as good. Tracking is awesome because if you can do a good track on an object that doesn't change shape organically, you can do one key frames (sometimes) and be done with it. I've been using a lot of two point tracking on Pirates 3 since we're doing a lot of ships, buildings, ropes and sails. It works out really well.

I don't feel anything is really missing in Nuke, it's awesome for rotoing.
Digital Fusion I didn't like how you had to rotate the shapes, or how you had to delete and watch keyframes.

Combustion I don't like how you have to move all the points, or it won't work properly. Or how you have to watch key frames and delete frames.

Shake I don't like how you have to make shapes, they either have to be in one node to see all of them, or you can't see all the splines. Plus the tracking isn't as good and it's terrible having to turn on and off things. I also don't like how you have to get the tangent handles, or smooth/break them.


how do you address things like lots of grain in images or working around scanlines in dv footage and blockyness in mpeg footage

We work with grain, but if it causes trouble in nuke there is a degrain node.

Dv footage I always use a colorspace and blur the YUV channels.

I haven't worked with mpeg files in while, but if is was all blocky, I'd either try the color space or I'd double the size of the channels, blur it, and resize it back down to see if that would help any. I think someone else might have a better idea on mpeg files than me.

What I like about nuke is the keyboard shortcuts, and that I can bring a roto shape from one keyframe to another keyframe. I like how it works with the tracker too.

I hope that helps explain some things on roto.

[dax3d]

Hype, at R&H are there staff positons or is everyone considered long or short-term freelance?

Long-term freelance is like an oxymoron :)

Lol, I'm working for Quiet Man right now, and I guess that's what they want me to do...long-term freelance! I guess it'd be better if I lived in the area (I'm in the Raleigh office)...but I don't have my car here, and I'm a guest in someone's home! :wheelchai

[VFXTalkDotCom]

hey girlcompositor,

thanks a million that was a awesome breakdown! I have always heard that the secret of vfx is not as much the magic but the roto! is that why everyone is jumping on the nuke bandwagon?

i heard that the paint in nuke wasnt all that... how well integrated is the paint into the roto? isnt that the perfect scenario? i spoke with a few flame guys and they said that flame rules for paint and roto, its what makes working with clients so smooth.

what do you think?

[RC23]

Im sure what im about to ask has been answered, but maybe not... I cant look thorugh every page for the answer..

I'm currently attending CalArts in LA studying film, but im realizing that an actualy job in production is nearly impossible to find. (300,000+ Directors live in LA)
I know After Effects, FCP, DVD SP, a little shake.
Compositing seems interesting to me, but im not sure what it is exactly.. is it just keying essentially? what does it intail? also what exactly is rotoscoping?

my school doenst offer anything in terms of VFX courses.. where is a good place to study? What programs should I learn if I want to get into compositing or rotoscoping?
I guess what im asking is, what should I learn and what exactly is compositing?
Thanks!

[seandunderdale]

Compositing varies depending on the studio and the type of jobs they take on. It can range from plugging passes in together such as diffuse, reflections, shadow, AO etc and colour correcting to creating animated visuals and cheating lots of effects that would be tricky and expensive in 3d.

[magno]

Amazing thread, thanks everyone for sharing all this info... really helped reelwise speaking.

[girlcompositor]

hey girlcompositor,

thanks a million that was a awesome breakdown! I have always heard that the secret of vfx is not as much the magic but the roto! is that why everyone is jumping on the nuke bandwagon?

i heard that the paint in nuke wasnt all that... how well integrated is the paint into the roto? isnt that the perfect scenario? i spoke with a few flame guys and they said that flame rules for paint and roto, its what makes working with clients so smooth.

what do you think?

Painting in Nuke is what it is, it's all procedural, so it's completely different than combustion. Sometimes it makes it really easy, sometimes the opposite. That's why we have both Combustion and Nuke at DD. So you can choose what way is faster. It isn't like you can clone an area and paint it in with a brush stroke in nuke. It's more like roto than paint.

[Natureartist]

Hello mate. I have a question I have been wanting an answer for ages

it is about object tracking in boujou .. is it possible to connect the imported track points to a biped in 3d studio max?

thanx for help and goood luck for even better future you man:)

[ShadowMaker SdR]

Hi Nature - the great thing about forums like this is the way threads can be kept seperate for archival purposes. Since you've already opened a thread for this question it's probably the cleanest to keep all questions and answers there, if only for your own sanity :-)

[VFXTalkDotCom]

heres the thread if anyone can join in and help natureartist :)

http://www.vfxtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8949

fyi we will be setting up a in forum wiki to help pin down some of this kind of static data :)

[ajax2008]

hi every one am ryan frm india doing my engineering in computer science . i am a v.v.v.v. big movie buff with a collection of over 400 films and a good knowledge in film history.. well what my dream is to pursue a career in the film industry in VFX field . well my prblm is i dont have much idea abt VFX and what i need to learn to be a gud vfx artist ..gusys these are my questions

1) am 19 yrs of age and i want to pursue a career in film industry as a VFX artist , what am i supposed to learn to be a gud vfx artisit i just happen to know flash and fotoshop and i will shortly learning maya during my vacation.

2) do i need to be v.gud at drawing to be a gud vfx artist??

3) is the future of a VFX artist bright ? as bright as a software engineer?? and hw much does a junior VFX artist earn per mnth ??? what is the actual job of a VFX artist??? since i dnt have much idea abt what VFX deals with do i have enough time to develop my self to meet the industry standards??

4) please guys suggest gud schools where i can learn and develop my self in the field of VFX!!

regards,

ryan

[blackmonkey]

would like to hear more about the school as well, also, I am thinking about ESCAPE studio and the VFX comprehensive course, has anyone taken this course? how is it regarded and how does it compare with other schools? it is a 6 months course covering compositing, vfx and 3d, any feedback will be appreciated!

[girlcompositor]

hi every one am ryan frm india doing my engineering in computer science . i am a v.v.v.v. big movie buff with a collection of over 400 films and a good knowledge in film history.. well what my dream is to pursue a career in the film industry in VFX field . well my prblm is i dont have much idea abt VFX and what i need to learn to be a gud vfx artist ..gusys these are my questions

1) am 19 yrs of age and i want to pursue a career in film industry as a VFX artist , what am i supposed to learn to be a gud vfx artisit i just happen to know flash and fotoshop and i will shortly learning maya during my vacation.


Depends on what you want to do int he Visual Effects Industry. If you want to be a modeller or animator Maya is a good program to learn.



2) do i need to be v.gud at drawing to be a gud vfx artist??

Again it depends on what you want to do as a vfx artist. To be an animator, probably, to be a compositior or on fx team no. I know people who can't draw a stick person, but did some very cool effects on some of the movies I've worked on.



3) is the future of a VFX artist bright ? as bright as a software engineer??


I think so. People love entertainment and every movie tries to trumpt the last with making it look better, a lot of movies ride solely on visual effects, and without the industry there is no movie. I fon't know anything about being a software engineer outside the industry, but you could build software in the visual effects industry too. Someone need to make Nuke and Maya.



and hw much does a junior VFX artist earn per mnth ???
Depends where you work, and how decent you are. I would suspect somewhere between $15-21 in the US.


what is the actual job of a VFX artist???
depends on what kind of artist you want to be.


since i dnt have much idea abt what VFX deals with do i have enough time to develop my self to meet the industry standards??

certainly, you just need some motivation and some practice.


4) please guys suggest gud schools where i can learn and develop my self in the field of VFX!!


I went to the Savannah College of Art and Design, in Savannah Georiga. I thought my education was good and the networking I did there even better.

Some other good schools I've heard about are:

The Academy in San Fransico
The Vancouver Film School, Vancouver Canada
The Art Institutes
Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT New York)

These are some of the schools I've met people from, but I'm sure there are a lot of others. Look around, I'm sure you can meet tons of people that went to that college on this message board and ask them questions about it.

[ajax2008]

thanks a lot girlcompositor for ur replies and i recently chcked ur demoreel great work! :emotional i wud love to study at SCAD but its damn expensive i cant afford to pay $ 44000 or more coz i 'll have to take loan to do that :( how abt this school in newzealand?? http://www.mediadesign.school.nz/ DOES any one have any idea about it?

well i guess the prblm with VFX industry is there is no outsourcing yet the major studios are located just in UK US and NZL :die:

galcompositor u said a VFX artist earns $15-$21k is it permonth or yearly??

[Aracore]

I live in Vancouver, and have seen some very nice reels come out of Vancouver Film School. I'm going to The Art Institute of Vancouver, and have found the VFX program to be very enlighting. I had no experience in vfx, hadn't even touched photoshop before, but have learned a lot, and have been told that I my stuff is pretty good (will post some work in a couple months.) The program is changing a bit now so it is more balanced, rather then being mostly comp or mostly 3D.

Aside from the US, UK or NZL/Aus, Vancouver is definitely becoming a big place to be for visual effects. Three big studios from the US justopened up here, as well as the many studios that already exist here. I have been told that there is plenty of work in Vancouver right now.

I would have to say it's hard to put a price on your education, if you know that is what you truly want to do. I will be about $35,000 in debt (partially because of living costs because I only work part time) when I'm done, but I would rather that, then continue working at a job which I don't really enjoy.

[ajax2008]

hi aracore what is the tution fee at the art institute of vancouver? do thet offer any sort of scholarships or fianancial assitances to international students?