Affordable Quality camera for matchmoving projects?

[hairston630]

Hi everyone,

I was inquiring about a good camera to do quality matchmoves with. Im not interested in home movie camera's where the footage is awful but the models are clean and stick out like a sore thumb. I just wanted to know of some cameras similar to something like the canon hv30 or something even a little cheaper that will do the job. Can anyone provide some input or links? Thank you all!

Hairston

[segfaultii]

I got myself a hf100 for the same reason but since the chip is cmos, you get rolling shutter distortion and can forget about tracking anything. Get one with a ccd chip, if you have the cash I'd recommend the HVX200.

[hairston630]

I got myself a hf100 for the same reason but since the chip is cmos, you get rolling shutter distortion and can forget about tracking anything. Get one with a ccd chip, if you have the cash I'd recommend the HVX200.

Thank you Segfaultii. I do not have the cash for an hvx200. Is there something along the price of the hv30 that I can buy? I noticed a few cheaper models in the $500-700 range and they had a ccd3 or something like that. Would that be sufficient? Any replies are highly appreciated.

Thanks,

Hairston

[Malibu most wanted]

I made the mistake of purchasing a sony AVCHD camcorder and it was crap to edit and had terrible tracking, my advice pay more and stay away from the new formats including P2, try ebay and find a used high end HDV. The optics are far superior (which is the most important aspect of the camera anyway) and it is fully supported by everything.

Bruce

[hairston630]

I made the mistake of purchasing a sony AVCHD camcorder and it was crap to edit and had terrible tracking, my advice pay more and stay away from the new formats including P2, try ebay and find a used high end HDV. The optics are far superior (which is the most important aspect of the camera anyway) and it is fully supported by everything.

Bruce

I take it that your camcorder had a cmos instead of 3ccd?

[Malibu most wanted]

yes, cmos, great for cheap home movies, bad for critical footage.

[hairston630]

yes, cmos, great for cheap home movies, bad for critical footage.

Now the HV30 has amazing quality when shot right. It has a cmos as well. Im guessing that its probably still bad for matchmoving since it has that cmos?

Hairston

[Gravy]

If it's just for match moving you could try pick up an old XL2 or vx2100. Something like that.

stay away from the new formats including P2, try ebay and find a used high end HDV. The optics are far superior (which is the most important aspect of the camera anyway) and it is fully supported by everything.

That's simply not true. At the prosumer level all lenses are pretty much equal. The HVX has a lower resolution due to it's 960*720 sensor which uses pixel shifting to create the full image.

As for actual actual optics; the z1, z5 and HVX are all going to be pretty comparible. You might get a slightly higher optic from something with detachable lens such as the z7. Probably not much in it though.

Also DVCPROHD (P2) is a far far far superior codec to HDV. So if I had the choice between p2 and hdv, p2 every time.

[Malibu most wanted]

Gravy, just because it is a newer codec does not mean it is superior.P2 is highly compressed and hard to edit, and the HDV I am talking about is the Sony Pro series from maybe 02'-04' all over ebay, those have much better optics than any P2 camcorder.

[alkali]

Uh... I have to disagree with you as well and urge everyone to stay away from HDV at all costs. Optics mean nothing when you're sticking the image in a garbage container.

[DJMartin]

I've used Sony HVR-Z1 with HDV compression and Panasonic AG-HVX200 with DVCPROHD compression. As gravy pointed out, the images from the HVX is much cleaner than what I get from the HVR, this is because of the compression and not the lens.

As for thread starter I would suggest to rent a HVX200 for a day or two, if you haven't thought of it. Especially if you don't plan to use it for anything else.

[hairston630]

I've used Sony HVR-Z1 with HDV compression and Panasonic AG-HVX200 with DVCPROHD compression. As gravy pointed out, the images from the HVX is much cleaner than what I get from the HVR, this is because of the compression and not the lens.

As for thread starter I would suggest to rent a HVX200 for a day or two, if you haven't thought of it. Especially if you don't plan to use it for anything else.

First of all to everyone...thank you for your kind responses and help. DJMartin, I have thought over that idea but for the price of a rental I can almost afford a new canon hv30 and use the rollingshutter plug-in made by the foundry. Im hesitant to spend $275 for one days worth of filming..an hv can set me back about $400 and even cheaper used and the quality is really good for a less than pro-sumer camera.

[Gravy]

Gravy, just because it is a newer codec does not mean it is superior.P2 is highly compressed and hard to edit, and the HDV I am talking about is the Sony Pro series from maybe 02'-04' all over ebay, those have much better optics than any P2 camcorder.

I never said it's better because it's a newer codec. It's core codec DVCPRO is actually an older codec but never mind. I use to be a freelance camera op I know what I'm talking about.

HDV is heavily compressed MPEG. It was made to fit on a tape which was only ever made for media 1/4 the resolution. The data rate is 25mbit's due to this it can cause several problems. The most apparent is with fast moves such as a pan, the macroblocking soon shows up and the image falls apart. Once this happens you have to wait for the next I frame for it to rectify itself. I've attached a picture from my personal library showing this.
It also only samples at 4:2:0 so your achieving no more colour information than DV.

It also causes problems in the edit bay with rendered etc due to the GOP structure.

DVCPROHD on the other hand runs up to 100Mbit (it's doubtful you'll see that out of an HVX. It also has a chroma resolution of 4:2:2 which means you can actually grade the footage to a certain extent.

All in all at your looking at a compression ratio from a 1080p 4:2:2 10 bit source of 47:1 on HDV. To fairly compare with an HVX we'll use 720p which is 27:1. DVCPROHD compression ratio is constant and 6.7:1.

[/rant]

First of all to everyone...thank you for your kind responses and help. DJMartin, I have thought over that idea but for the price of a rental I can almost afford a new canon hv30 and use the rollingshutter plug-in made by the foundry. Im hesitant to spend $275 for one days worth of filming..an hv can set me back about $400 and even cheaper used and the quality is really good for a less than pro-sumer camera.

Maybe the rolling shutter isn't a bad thing now a days. As you said there are ways to fix it such as the foundry's plug in which could be incorporated into your reel.

I'd say unless your really fussed about HD get some for of DV CCD camera. Even a handy cam would probably be fine. It's a bit out of budget but as I mentioned before this is a fairly decent camera : http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-Handycam-DCR-VX2100-Xtra-Bat-UV-Great-Cond_W0QQitemZ160356862371QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCamco rders_Professional_Video_Cameras?hash=item25560389 a3&
_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

When you want some new stuff as previously mentioned you can always rent. (even rent a vx2100 they must be cheap day rates) Maybe try and find some film makers in your area. Maybe there is a film making society. Someone would be willing to help you out I'm sure.

[hairston630]

I never said it's better because it's a newer codec. It's core codec DVCPRO is actually an older codec but never mind. I use to be a freelance camera op I know what I'm talking about.

HDV is heavily compressed MPEG. It was made to fit on a tape which was only ever made for media 1/4 the resolution. The data rate is 25mbit's due to this it can cause several problems. The most apparent is with fast moves such as a pan, the macroblocking soon shows up and the image falls apart. Once this happens you have to wait for the next I frame for it to rectify itself.
It also only samples at 4:2:0 so your achieving no more colour information than DV.

It also causes problems in the edit bay with rendered etc due to the GOP structure.

DVCPROHD on the other hand runs up to 100Mbit (it's doubtful you'll see that out of an HVX. It also has a chroma resolution of 4:2:2 which means you can actually grade the footage to a certain extent.

All in all at your looking at a compression ratio from a 1080p 4:2:2 10 bit source of 47:1 on HDV. To fairly compare with an HVX we'll use 720p which is 27:1. DVCPROHD compression ratio is constant and 6.7:1.

[/rant]



Maybe the rolling shutter isn't a bad thing now a days. As you said there are ways to fix it such as the foundry's plug in which could be incorporated into your reel.

I'd say unless your really fussed about HD get some for of DV CCD camera. Even a handy cam would probably be fine.

Im seriously considering the hv30....its a 24p 1080p 16:9 but the only drawback is the cmos chip as opposed to 3ccd or ccd. Im hoping that the rollingshutter plugin will help compensate.

Here is a video from youtube in regards to the HV30 straight out of the box with manual focus and some premier pro editing.

[ShrunkenHead]

+1 for Gravy's thoughts.
I use both a Sony HDV and an HVX200. P2 is far superior in every way except cheap recording media.