The Importance of On Set Reference, getting it and using it.

[Sean Varney]

The Importance of On Set Reference, getting it and using it.


Hello sorry to take up your time, I’m Sean and up until quite recently I worked at the CG Coal face but now I have gone off to the world of research and that is why I’m posting here. Im looking at the area of On Set Reference use and capture

I know how it feels when a client comes in with a projects shot list and its time to work out costs and man hours needed per shot. Your team comes in and you talk throw the “how” it can be done shot buy shot.

Then some one says we need On Set Reference

It Could be

2D Image ref for Back Plates, Lighting Ref, HDR. Color or just over view ref etc

3D LIDAR, laser scanning, Photogrammetric ref, Total station Survey, Disto, GPS etc

Film/video Winners Cams, Videogrammetric ref, Basic MoCap

Camera Ref, Lens Grids, lens info (to shot number) Hot Head Camera mount etc

Mach moving/tracking targets, event targets, set extension/Blue Screen targets etc

You make a note of what’s needed and then you start to work out how to get it and what is needed, (no two CG VFX pipelines are the same so getting it into your current CG VFX pipeline also needs to be checked)

Then comes the part where the post house VFX Producer negotiates with the VFX Supervisor and production to get the data, could be some one from the post house go’s to set, could be production has a Data wrangler who’s over seeing the job or It could be a 3ed party hired in by production or the post house to get the data.

The data comes and you plug It into your pipeline and away you go, shots done well and high praise.


From my own experience I know its never that simple, A film/Tv Production From my own experience I know that a film/Tv set is as close as one can get to an organized train crash.

Most of use has come across an apophrycal story of some VFX post person being booted of set for getting in the way. Now it not always that bad but there are problems.

Moved. Lost targets,
miss named cans,
mixed up lens ref,
no time to get data,
set rebuilt of changed and many more.

Also problems can come when the data is comes

Files are just to big / off file format
Set areas missing,
Miss/wrongly titled,
Wrong type
And many more.

Then the post team starts to use it in your pipeline and more possible problems, Film plate dos not mach ref data. It’s the wrong kind, it was taken badly etc.

And that’s what this post is about, I would ask that no names be used if they are to be shown in a negative light. Just instances are fine.

What I’m looking for from the grate and wise minds of VFX Talk is
Instances, Ideas and observations on the good and bad of On Set References

Thank you so much for your time
Yours truly,
Sean V
CG VFX Researcher

[shiraz_peer]

Hi Sean,

There is a neverending parade of complaints about production not having enough camera and lens info.

I am now trying to work out the mother of all camera info sheets for an upcoming shoot.

It would be great to hear what you or other artists have to say, what you think is important, what info is usually missing or if you have any templates to recommend!

Thanks

[Sean Varney]

Hi Shiraz just got the Linkin post,

FS has a number of on set sheets that list Camera Info when on set.

PM me and I will run through what they are and the Kit used.

Sean V

[mkolars]

Hi Sean,

its me Mark, remember the Beijing coffee guy...

Good that you start this thread because it concerns me actually everyday in my recent job. As CG/VFX Supe i have to gather tons of data with my team and it is a battle to get it done, not only because of the reluctance of production people who mostly don't understand the importance of our work on-set, but mostly because of limited time.

F.e. HDRI: It is really difficult, if you don't have a Sphereon or something similar to get it done quite fast, i often use a Panohead and my Mark II to shoot 360x180 panos. I use exposure bracketing to get the full range. Even this camera is quite fast in shooting RAW and even i use a 10mm lens it still takes some time to finish. Sometimes it is just a couple of minutes the production crew try to shy me away.

If time and budget allows i also look into RealViz and Intersense VCam real-time camera tracking devices because no matter how many times you tell a director he should try to avoid crazy crash zooms (because no tracking markers visible) or areas in the cyc without any tracking reference, they still do this and have mostly no idea how much longer in post it takes to track a shot.

So for less important or far in the distance shots i mostly use a grey/chrome ball combo to get a HDRI and lighting ref done. For reflection maps of course chrome ball is not sufficient but for lighting is good enough.

Regarding set data i have downloaded from MrMovie but also created my own sheets.

I try to make 'best friend' with the camera assistant to get lens/camera related infos which works sometimes but mostly i have to put a guy besides him to remind him to give us data in case we are going to shoot a VFX shot.

Incliometer i found out is not very practical, so i use a Apple iPhone application which is straped to the camera. It gives me tilt and roll information.

I always force the production crew to shoot lens grids with all lenses with me long time before the actual production starts.

Regarding set reference i always shoot everything, its a simple habbit, more is better than finding out in post that we missed something important, but also to do photogrammetry and matchmoving.

I use a laser range finder to measure distances for outdoor i use GPS geo tagging works nicely with Google and enable me to download geomaps to recreate the terrain if needed.

But you are right, no matter how good your gadgets are or how carefulyl you wrangled your data, post houses tend to mix everything easy up. I think this problem has mostly to do with the fact that given data is too abstract to understand if someone didn't attend the actual shooting which makes a big difference if you see the set dimensions/light positions/physical camera location, etc. with your own eyes rather than getting just a sheet handed over.

Its still a battle with production crews and sometimes it needs really guts to just step in and say:" OK guys you have to wait for me, because i HAVE to do this now, no matter how you think about it or might not understand what i am doing !!"

And my tool bag in a big flycase from Pelican consits of:

- carpet knive with blades, Leatherman, fishing wire, laser range finder, Mark II and 400D with Sigma zoom 18-200, Sigma 10mm, Primes from Nikon (wide, fish eye, normal), yellow/red gaffer tape, HDV video camera, lens grids, tracking markers of all size and with different patterns, camera data sheets, 50m measure tape, DELL 6300 laptop with all apps installed, like PFTrack, Nuke, Shake, Hugin, AE, Premiere Pro, PS CS3 incl. a external 1TB Firewire drive for animatics, concept art, etc., double sided tape, Panohead with sticks, surgical booties, GPS geo tagging device, laser pointers (red & green), American cinmetographers manual, conversion tables for different camera/lens systems, posties, China and different highlight markers, pens of all sizes, sharpies, fast straps, paper and super glue, Mc Beth and other color rendition charts, Kodak grey scale 18%, SMPTE charts (for HD), Sony Memosticks for F900/950 with cutomized LUT's, a small handheld PC with voice recorder and last but not least what i found out as very useful a mobile internet stick to be online and sometimes even feed
data in my Google sheets on-set.

Lately i also use a Mac Book Pro with Conduit Live installed to do quick onsite comps/previz. I use the HD I/O box from Kona to feed in from a HD camera and even record takes into FC as ProRes clips just as a reference in order not to wait for the editorial house.

If time and budget allows i also look into RealViz and Intersense VCam products to get camera/zoom lens data to make matchmoving and tracking life much easier. But this necessitates a prepared studio environment. If this is not possible i try to get consulting services from Autodesk and its Previz/Virtual Cinematography products.

[Sean Varney]

Thanks Mark that is just the kind of feed back I was looking for.
I hope others will help me and do the same

[Paradoc]

Mark, thank you for writing up that very interesting post and allowing us to take a look over your shoulder to learn from your experience.
The funny thing is, it kind of reminds me of my days as a lighting engineer at theatres, considering all the junk I carried around and constantly having to check what people are doing and how that influences your ability to do your job.